reniaa add 2 plus 2 = 5
Question
by inbetween 57 Replies latest jw experiences
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allelsefails
Reniaa - The problem is not writing "something" that is not inspired. The problem is using comments like - "these are not man's dates, but God's" (refering to 1874/1914) - "vaccinations are a clear violation of God's law to Noah". Loyalty to God = Loyalty to the Governing Body (Aug 15th WT). If you write - "In our understanding of the scriptures this seems to be true" I have no problem. If you say "this is new light fom Jehovah" BUT "we're not inspired" that is nonsense double talk - It either comes from Jehovah or your own initiative there is no inbetween. Anything that is wrong came from your own originality NOT Jehovah. You know what Jesus said about that - right?
(John
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ziddina
Hrumph. I also have a question, but first I want to caution "InBetween" -
When you read the cautions of others who have questioned the WTBTS [Watchtower Bible and Tract Society] - their particular and current 'takes' on any issue - these people are speaking with the voices of experience. You will not obtain good results if you question current members [especially elders!] about the WTBTS' policies. Many who have done so - as stated by others - found that they had a 'target painted on their chest' - were viewed after questioning the WTBTS as "poor spiritual association", and so on...
Now for my question.
How is it that so few people have figured out that the religions based on the bible are practically the YOUNGEST group of religions on the face of the planet??? The only religion YOUNGER than those based on the bible is Islam! And BOTH are intrinsically MIDDLE EASTERN in origin!!
The bible [when accurately dated...] is only a few thousand years old - approx. 3,300 years old, according to one authority. Christianity is only two thousand years old, yet Buddhism is over seven hundred years OLDER than Christianity, many forms of GODDESS worship are over TWENTY THOUSAND YEARS OLD - some probably date back at least THIRTY-FIVE THOUSAND years, according to a recent archaeological discovery in Germany...
And the religion[s] of the Austrailian Aborigines are at least FORTY TO EIGHTY THOUSAND years old, and may be as old as ONE HUNDRED TWENTY THOUSAND years!!!
So, with those figures in mind, WHY ON EARTH do you think that a 'supreme being' would be found in one of the YOUNGEST religions, instead of the OLDEST religions??? I think that a true 'deity' would be found in the OLDEST religions - THAT would be true 'continuity' for a 'deity'.
Zid
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DaCheech
ziddina, never thought of that, makes perfect sense.
people like reniaa, and spike can quote the bible well, but cannot add 2 plus 2
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isaacaustin
umm Reniaa, you are wrong like usual. The GB has actually claimed inspiration for their publications. No, they have not said "We claim divine inspiration for our publications", but they have claimed to be God's channel of communication to mankind. What is their means of communication of this 'truth'? The WT and pubs. They have said statements such as their pubs are God's words.
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winstonchurchill
Back to the original question: I wouldn't advise talking to others (much less an elder) about your doubts. Nothing good wil come from that.
However I can say I have managed to voice a few things and get away with it. Maybe because my 'prominent past' within the org., or maybe because am known for speaking my mind and being irreverent, but I have seen o visible consequences (other that weird looks or laughs) to my comments. I also avoid challenging the FDS authority and concede that the poor guys are imperfect, yada yada yada.
But those close to me know I don't thinks there's scriptural basis for time keeping and reporting, ban on birthdays and thanksgiving, and that 1914 could be subject to revision.
On a Different note: I think poor Reniaa has IBS, because she's crappin' all day long!
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Cadellin
Imperfection isn't the problem. The problem is accountability. The GB WANT to be obeyed AS IF they are inspired, yet avoid any kind of accountability when they are wrong or when they change position. They expect obedience to the point of huge, huge life changing decisions--not marrying, not having kids, not going to college, etc., enormous decisions that impact a person's entire life. If their positions were stated in more humble terms--"to the best of our knowledge," "we believe", etc. AND enforcement was not mandatory, then, no, there wouldn't be any problem with being wrong from time to time.
(I should clarify something. Lots of JW marry and have kids and more than a few go to college, so it's not like its forbidden to do those things. What I mean is, many listen to the counsel that the end is imminent and everything other than witnessing has to take a back seat and, as a result of a strong conscience and basically a decent heart, they decide, BASED ON SUCH INFORMATION, not to have kids, etc., even though they might otherwise have done so. Whew! Hope that makes sense!)
So the onus is on each person to determine what is true. As Carl Sagan said once, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." I would have no problem with anyone or any organization claiming to be God's channel, if they could back it up with proof. In the first century, the Christian congregation made extraordinary claims--they were now God's channel, not the Jews--BUT they had extraordinary evidence to back it up. They were performing miracles, they were raising the dead. (NOTE: I'm just taking the NT on face value for the sake of argument; I have some concerns with the whole concept of inspiration right now. But that's beside the point.)
The GB point to the world wide preaching work and the increases over the last century as extraordinary evidence. Yet is it? If you have a group of people whose whole purpose in life is doing nothing but evangelizing, and with as wonderful a hope as JWs offer (and yes, it is an incredibly seductive hope, paradise, tame animals and all the fruit you want), then it would be extraordinary if they DIDN'T manage to grow in numbers. Yet even that is waning in the past few decades, with the exception of third world countries, where ALL evangelical groups are growing rapidly, not just Witnesses.
Inbetween: I'm in your shoes, man. I haven't said boo to anybody except my husband. I'm doing the ultra slow fade. I'm not going out in svc anymore for the very reason you gave--I can't bear the thought of telling people things that I know arn't backed up by the evidence. I still turn in a couple of hours to keep things peaceful. It's tough. I take one day at a time. I agree with everyone else--talking is going to get you in trouble. Writing the society is pointless. I'm lucky in that I'm in a cong where the elders are not going to make waves as long as I don't make waves. Sleeping dogs and all that. So far anyway.
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donuthole
Apart from talking to my wife, I spoke about the UN issues with my natural dad (who is an elder) and an elder in my home congregation.
My dad was a bit disturbed by it - and spoke to some of the elders in his hall - ultimately I guess he dismissed the information and reconciled it somehow.
This other elder insisted that I write to the Organization and get an answer from Jehovah. I was nervous about doing so because I figured that it would open me up for apostasy charges if I dind't like "Mother's" answer and at the time I didn't know how I felt about the Org. I rebuffed this elders attempts to write the letter so eventually he decided to write to the Society on my behalf. (I think he wanted an answer as much as I did which is why he wouldn't let it drop.)
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Spike Tassel
To Reniaa:— I see that you use the term "leaders", not from the NWT, but from other translations/ versions. Thank you for this clarification.
To Zid:— The age of human beings as a species is very much a matter of faith and supposition, regardless of the positions. After all, none of us has the continuous age to determine this matter. The angels, Jesus Christ, and Jehovah have this knowledge that we yet lack.
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DaCheech
spike, it's called SCIENCE.
I guess you don't believe in science. gotta love the middle ages.... you know the earth was the center of the universe.... leave it in the hands of Jehobah
