drwtsn32, if Undisfellowshipped had an experience with a deceptive WTS Bible, then you can't question his perception and he can't be held captive to your argum--wait, sorry, forgot what thread I was on.
they never say "bracketed 'other' here" when reading bible either......
by oompa 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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oompa
what i meant too was is it just the fill in words...like the, of, and, a...or did they remove them only from the big "creating doctrine" words?...oompa
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Kudra
oompa- yeah. And this seems like a TOTALLY huge thing... was a big deal made about it here and I didn't read about it??
also- excellent observation in your original post. :)
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hamsterbait
This is actually a total UNFAIR criticism of the WT Bible.
Get out your King James Translation of 1611 -
Do you notice that some words are printed in italics? These are words that had to be added to the text to make the meaning clear to those reading it. (or studying)
When the KJ Version is read out in churches nobody says "italics" before the added words. So why should a JW say "bracket" before the NWT equivalent?
What I am angry about is that the paperback edition of the NWT removes all the brackets, so you dont see whether a word is added to make the meaning clear, or to promote a WTBTS interpretation of the verse.
Though I do not deny that the NWT has unjustifiably added to the text in several cases.
HB
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hamsterbait
of course we have the GLARING example of Acts
In chapter 2 they translate preaching and taking meals "IN PRIVATE HOMES"
But in Chapter 5 they say preaching in public places and "FROM DOOR TO DOOR", where the words are identical.
These deliberate and misrepresentative translations are far more serious and deceitful than adding english transitionals to make the meaning clear.
HB
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Earnest
hamsterbait, I appreciate your point about the KJV using italics to indicate "additional" words but nobody says "italics" before the added words when it is read out in churches. If you took the suggestion to its logical conclusion and informed the listeners each time a translation did not keep strictly to the words and syntax of the original any Bible reading would be straight out of Monty Python.
And why on earth criticise the removal of brackets. How many translations give any indication when words are added for clarity (as they are, in all translations). The most probable reason they have been removed, imo, is that they only served to confuse and served no useful purpose. If you want to know what the original text said then get out the Kingdom Interlinear. That's why it was published.
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Narkissos
Imo too the use of brackets/italics is worse than their absence because it gives the utterly wrong suggestion that what is not in brackets corresponds exactly to the form of the "original," and more generally reinforces the impression of a super-technical, hyper-conscientious, scholarly accurate translation.
Translation work is all about choices. It's much better for the translator to take the responsibility of his/her choices and make them optimally clear in the main text, and use the footnotes to indicate alternative renderings (as the gamut of options s/he had to choose from).
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PSacramento
Hamsterbait,
You said, " These deliberate and misrepresentative translations are far more serious and deceitful than adding english transitionals to make the meaning clear."
And that is a very valid point, however, in the case of Colosians, the additon of "other" doesn't make it clearer because it was never unclear to begin with.
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Chalam
Hi HB,
With regard to the NWT use of square brackets, in inserting a word here and there, moving a comma once in a while and such they totally change the meaning of some key verses. Consider Colossians 1:16 for example
New International Version (©1984)
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.International Standard Version (©2008)
For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him.GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers- everything has been created through him and for him.King James Bible
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:American King James Version
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:American Standard Version
for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;Bible in Basic English
For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;Douay-Rheims Bible
For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him.Darby Bible Translation
because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him.English Revised Version
for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;Webster's Bible Translation
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:Weymouth New Testament
For in Him was created the universe of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, thrones, dominions, princedoms, powers--all were created, and exist through and for Him.World English Bible
For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.Young's Literal Translation
because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,Now the NWT
16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.
In fact, they have to keep it going for several [other] verses!
17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.
Small word added resulting in a huge theological shift. Jesus changes from being God and creating everything to being "a god" and being created himself.
All the best,
Stephen
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possible-san
The introduction of the NWT has stated as follows.
*** Rbi8 p. 7 Introduction ***
Single brackets [ ] enclose words inserted to complete the sense in the English text.So, it is translated as follows.
“Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.”
COLOSSIANS 1:17-20 (NWT)
It is not only the word "other."Well, probably, I think that an understanding of the preposition "dia" in that Greek text has also influenced that translation.
That preposition is translated into "through" in the NWT.“. . .All [other] things have been created through him and for him.”
COLOSSIANS 1:16 (NWT)