Adam and Eve should have scuppered God'sWIll before the breezy part of day

by hamsterbait 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • hamsterbait

    God barred the way to the tree of Life after A&E ate of the tree of Knowledge.

    Because if they ate of it they would be guaranteed never to die.

    So - omnipotent God says that if they eat the fruit of KNOWLEDGE they will DIE.

    And - Omnipotent God says that if they eat the fruit of LIFE they will NOT die.

    So is God here admitting he cannot make them die if they eat yet another goddam piece of fruit?

    This sounds a bit like the argument I used to dismiss (was it Hegel or Kierkegaard?)

    Can an Almighty God make an object which he cannot move? Now I have seen it in the Bible for myself I shall never again dismiss it as facile.

    Did he deliberately hide the secret of the Tree of Life? If not A&E shouldn't have wasted time sewing that day they should just have sprinted straight for the Goody Tree.


  • megs

    My question... Can there be a biblical discussion with a believer that does not involve a degree of cognitive dissonance? There is no good answer to your question imo...

  • mindmelda

    I believe Adam and Eve is a metaphor, not a literal account. In my examination of all sorts of religions, I found some rabbi's have the most intriguing explanation of the Adam and Eve story.

    They believe it is an allegory about the creation of man, but about when humans first attained a certain degree of spiritual awareness and civilization. It's only in that sense that people in the "cradle of civilization" became the first humans to acquire writing, reading, and it led to, for better or worse, the first attempts to organize spirituality, make religions, politicize them, whatever. Ideas about "paradise" utopian rewards, heaven, afterlife, all that probably became more consolidated during this time in human progress, too, along with the wheel, taming animals, agriculture, all the trappings of civlization.

    That's actually pretty well backed up by archaeology.

    Looked at that way, Eden simply becomes one of the many allegories where man wishes to return to the relative simplicity and closeness to nature we all had as small nomadic tribes of hunter gatherers, before formal governing arrangements, cities, formal codes of laws and religion. Ever notice how that spiritually focuses people to get away from it all? Hence the cruise, camping, retreats to the desert, spas where people go on nature walks, resorts built around hot springs (which were invariable sacred to early man), eating very simple foods, even cooking over a fire.

    As Joseph Campbell, the reknowned professor of mythology said, "We're all just trying to get back into the garden." One of my favorite quotes.

    The "eating of the fruit" becomes a metaphor for gaining civilization and with it, gradually losing our innocence and awe about the world around us.

    But I believe we were intended to do so, it's just part of the gradual self awareness of the human race. Oh, I believe in a First Cause, an Eternal God but not the JW God, and certainly not the degree of Biblical literalism that the Witnesses indulge in.

  • Chalam

    Hi HB,

    Yes some interesting questions about the tree.

    For sure, it isn't around now. Anyhow, they are growing well-there is a whole orchard now :) Revelation 22

    So just make sure you get your clothes washed and you will be ready for your "five a day" 5 A DAY : Department of Health - Public health

    Guaranteed to keep you heathy for ever!

    All the best,


  • Leolaia

    mindmelda...I have a similar take on it. The story relates how the process of growing up originated, among other things. Adam and Eve are created with no life experience, no maturity....they are naked children with no more moral knowledge than the animals. They are living in Yahweh's home and are cared for by him, with all their needs provided for. He gives them black/white rules to obey, just as little children receive. And they are gullible. They are adults when they leave the garden -- they are married, Adam must work to obtain his food, Eve experiences the pangs of childbirth. If Eden represents childhood in mythological terms, eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil represents the rite of passage from childhood into adulthood. They lose their innocence and discover a more adult moral capacity and understanding. Once that happens, there is no going back and they cannot remain in Eden as adults. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh" (Genesis 2:24). Yahweh, like any strict parent, throws them out of his house and they must make a living for themselves. And what happens in the case of the first humans is repeated for all their descendents -- we all start out in childish innocence and then acquire a more mature moral sense as we grow up.

  • Robdar

    Leo and Melda, your posts are well written. I agree totally with your explanations.

  • awildflower

    Hamsterbait, I just finished reading a book called The Voice of Knowledge by Don Miguel Ruiz. The first chapter is called Adam and Eve, the Story From a Different Point of View. It was very interesting his take on it. I typed out the whole first chapter for a friend the other day (it's pretty short). I wanted to post it but wasn't sure if that would be against the rules. But you should read the

  • marcopolo

    this has always given in me mental confusion.has been sinned there? happen? or no?

  • hamsterbait

    I also find the account interesting as it hints of an earlier mythology that had to be edited to fit with later religious ideas.

    For instance God is heard by Adam and Eve as he WALKS about the Garden in the cool part of the day. In other words the earliest God hinted at here is subject to heat and cold, and like humans of the area and time liked to take a walk in the "breezy"part of the day to cool down.

    The inherent contradiction of a God who condemns somebody to death for eating one fruit, but who is incapable of doing so if they eat another also does not chime with theAlmighty deity propounded by the later jews. It is more like some kind of fairy tale magic, of spell and counter spell. (remember the apple in Snow White?)

    Even the portrayal of Gods spirit in Ch1 as fluttering, like the egyptian winged orb, over the waters has to be a much earlier stratum of the account.

    Personally I think that the various currently recognised sources for this part of the Bible imply even earlier ones, as above.

    That the basic account came from campfire story tellers of a forgotten tribal pre history is obvious, despite the elevated gloss put on it by much later Greek educated scholars. It has more in common with the tales told by Amazonian tribes, or african bushmen, where a God can be cheated out of his aim and tricked.


  • RubaDub

    "Breezy part of the day ....... "

    If you live in South Florida you know that that is typically 3PM to 3:10PM when you get a brief thunderstorm, wind and rain.

    Rub a Dub

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