Bonafide didn’t lie, you’re just mistaken.
That scripture is used as a guideline based on perceived facts. In every meeting I was in we prayed for Holy Spirit. If a brother was about to be appointed, and there was unknown information that would preclude him from being appointed, than Holy Spirit would make that known.
The same for judicial hearings. Decisions are based on perceived facts. But before hand direction from Holy Spirit is prayed for.
If it appears over time that the correct decision was made than Holy Spirit approved the decision. If shortly afterward new information comes to light that contradicts the decision than Holy Spirit made the truth known.
Either way it is assumed that all decisions are directed by Holy Spirit. Therefore the Elders can assume that all of their actions, decisions and opinions are directed, allowed or inspired by Holy Spirit.
Same goes for the Governing Body. Any decision they make is based on perceived facts. Since they are imperfect men it is possible for them to make a bad decision. And if they are about to make that bad decision then Holy Spirit is supposed to step in. Therefore all decisions are assumed to be inspired; otherwise the Holy Spirit would have put a stop to it.
Why elders are so CERTAIN of they OWN OPINIONS
by BonaFide 18 Replies latest jw friends
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C. T. Russell
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reniaa
then you are just quibbling because surely the first century Christians pick elders the same way these use the tim scriptures for the perceived facts but they too would pray for holy spirit guidance. where they also wrong?
Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.Jude 1:19-20 (New International Version)
19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20 But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.
If you condemn witnesses for this you must also condemn first century christians and appostles for this.
that the scriptures clearly show that wrongdoing is still an option for them they can turn back to wrong ways, It also shows that spirit can guide but it certainly cannot guarantee perfection.
here a whole chapter explaining things we have to deal that we must ask for God's help. here's part of it...
James 1:2-8 (New International Version)
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4 Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6 But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
we are constantly under attack by temptation atm all we can do is ask for God's help and spirit this is not wrong?
So why are you trying to make it into a wrongdoing why are you trying to imply that Witnesses when asking for holy spirit help means it picks an elder? yes maybe it could help make some wrongdoing come to light I will have to research scripture on that but this is after the fact again. bonafide was not saying that! he was implying that they are picked deliberately by holy spirit when you admitted yourself that holy spirit is asked for as the first century christians also asked for it.
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C. T. Russell
The scriptures you cite or may research are useless. That’s because what the Governing Body believes and whatever scripture you can quote are two different things.
They do believe that appointments are made by Holy Spirit. They are picked deliberately via Jehovah’s Organization. To say they are not chosen by Holy Spirit is to say that the Organization is not directed by Holy Spirit. If you were to imply or argue otherwise you would be an Apostate. The Bible is always consulted but appointments in Jehovah’s Organization are not done via a check off list.
If bad appointments or decisions are made they believe that Holy Spirit will make it known. If it is not made known in a relatively short period of time then they may have a problem with the Holy Spirit. If a Body of Elders makes too many bad appointments than a CO, DO or someone from the Organization will look at the possibility that maybe the Holy Spirit has “left the building”. This is usually because of the possibility that deliberate wrongdoing is being covered up in defiance of the Holy Spirit. They may take action to remove some Elders, temporarily put the congregation under the direction of another BOE, or in some cases disband altogether.
These actions are not done via check off list or scriptural examples. It sounds like you’re under the assumption that no action is ever taken without first carefully considering a rule book or scripture. That is just not the case. -
isaacaustin
honesty bonafide? you lied! elders are appointed by whether they qualify by this scripture....
1 Timothy 3:1-10 (New International Version)
1 Timothy 3
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, [ a ] he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8 Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
holy spirit inspired the bible so are you obscuring the fact they are chosen by holy spirit in so far they fulfil the requirement of the holy spirit inspired bible?
My reply: Elders are chosen by the Holy Spirit, in Christianity. In the JWs it is based on how good company men they are.
IF you pick someone that then goes on to sin are you to blame?
Was Jesus to blame for judas going wrong?
My reply: Judas used his free will and changed.
I'm trying to understand your motivation of making out Jw's believe some great celestial hand comes down and picks a man for elder or leadership? I know this is what christendom do teach with their appostolic successsion and laying on of hands but this is not a witness teaching?
They only look to see if a man qualifies by the above standard although I think marriage is optional because Paul clearly allowed single brothers could be elders too.
My reply: fair statement
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Wasanelder Once
We were told that the Holy Spirit was involved if the guidelines in the Bible were followed because these were inspired by HS and therefore their use would reflect the HS. So long as these were employed the HS was "guiding" the event. This was the same for Judicial action and choosng Elders and Minature Servants. This whole "feeling" thing is very pentecostal in nature and it is pervasive among elders. The Holy Spirit "bringing things to light" is very heebie jeebie and silly. After a hard day of window washing many elders revel in the thought that they are a channel for the HS in their thoughts and actions. The truth is they are simply religious fanatics without any connection to reality. Been there, been directed by that, got the tee shirt and went home. W.Once
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sir82
elders are appointed by whether they qualify by this scripture....
1 Timothy 3:1-10 (New International Version)
Hey reniaa, how many meetings have you attended where brothers are considered for appointment as elders or ministerial servants?
How many?
That's what I thought.
If you had actually attended such a meeting (I realize that you lack the necessary biological equipment to do so ) you would realize that at best - at best - that scripture is read once, briefly, at the beginning of the discussion, then promptly forgotten about, never to be mentioned again. Many times the Bible is not even opened.
Here, in order of importance, are the real requirements to be appointed:
1) What is his field service average?
2) If married, what is his wife's field service average?
3) If he has children, are they setting a good example appropriate for their age (e.g., at least unbaptized publishers if teenagers)?
4) Is he "visible" in the congregation (answers at meetings, supports field service arrangements, volunteers at assemblies, etc.)
5) Does he have any glaring quirks or personality issues that would make him difficult to work with?
And here are some requirements that have absolutely no bearing on whether someone is appointed. These things are never discussed:
1) Compassion
2) Intelligence
3) Faith
4) Mercy
5) Generosity
6) Courage
7) Fairness
8) Wisdom
9) Honesty
10) Humility
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WTWizard
They are not getting double honor out of me, since they have not proven themselves worthy of any honor. Rather, I will give them double headaches.
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IMHO
Mongolia
So true, so very true.
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KAYTEE
Reniaa,
The scriptures you quote 1tim 3 1-10 ;
Verse 6, not a newly converted man, for fear he might get puffed up with pride…………………….
Was god speaking to himself (Holy Spirit) or was he directing his requirements for office to MEN (Very imperfect men), yes he was, and there lies the big problem.
Saying,
If you want to rule over others ……………..you must first be master of yourself.
How can they see the qualities of others and more to the point, are they willing to see qualities in their brothers, when they are so imperfect themselves.
I would say that rules out a fair collection of MEN.
KT