"I'm Perfect, You're Doomed" discussion...

by Tuesday 58 Replies latest jw friends

  • brinjen
    brinjen
    But the most damaging thing I keep coming back to, the one that really made me say "Look I can't say this book is a good example of what ex-JWs are like" is where she confirms she was making up an accusation of her father molesting her to look cool.

    Where did she make any accusations against her father to look cool? I know there's the part where she tells him "I know what you did"... but that's as far as it goes. He probably had no clue what she was on about... she never went to the police or anyone else and she was under the influence of her pioneering friend who had been abused and consquently was highly suspicious (to say the least) of the motives of any male as a result.

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday
    Where did she make any accusations against her father to look cool? I know there's the part where she tells him "I know what you did"... but that's as far as it goes. He probably had no clue what she was on about... she never went to the police or anyone else and she was under the influence of her pioneering friend who had been abused and consquently was highly suspicious (to say the least) of the motives of any male as a result.

    That's what I'm talking about, THANK GOD she didn't go to the police. However she makes it quite clear how cool this pioneer sister was who had the troubled past and she wanted to be like her. Then she confronts her Dad say "I know what you did" and the father stood dumbfounded. This is very much a place in print where it proves a child can be influenced to lie about something THAT important simply because they think it's cool

  • GoddessRachel
    GoddessRachel

    People need to stop with this "You don't relate because you don't know what it's like" stuff, I was a Jehovah's Witness too. As I said earlier in the thread I grew up two towns over from her, I was in a gifted program, my parents had a bad marriage, in fact I was the child of divorce who was quite literally made to choose in the courtroom between his parents.

    No, Tuesday, I don't have to stop with this you don't relate. You don't. Did you get told your entire life that your opinion does not matter, that your purpose in life is to respect and submit to your husband? No, you did not. Boys and men in that religion are taught that they are above women. You don't relate. You don't relate. You don't have any clue what it was like to be a Jehovah's Witness girl, and nothing you can say will convice me otherwise.

    And frankly, I don't care that you don't like the book. That's cool with me. I was thinking the thread title that included the word "discussion" meant I could give my opinions on the book. Maybe I was wrong.

    I also hated Transformers.

    Rachel

  • saywhat29
    saywhat29

    Tuesday, she never accused him of anything. She was hanging around 'Lisa' and 'Lisa' had made her believe something had happened because every male around Lisa always did something. The main character was a follower, a poser, and she wrote that clear as day. So then, being the total follower she was, she supposedly approached him while he was sitting eating like a cheeto and said "I know what you did." She never explained what it was he did and he never had an idea of what she meant in the story. However, if you remember in the story she did have that one incident with Betty's unbelieving husband after the circus...

    Your main issue is that you hate things that exemplifiy stereotypes of those who leave and thats your big issue with the book but like I said way back when most of us do fit said stereotypes because said stereotypes are 'normal'. I'm gay. Some people 'fornicate'. some people just aren't religius and were weak in the faith because it didn't fit in their lives. I know you try to exemplify a good person as to not be 'stereotype' but like I said in the other thread, even if you dont, they make you fit so I wouldn't worry about it. Kyria's story wasn't just about being a JW. It was about a young, silly, immature girl in a high control religion with parents who fell out of love, a husband she married to escape them, and OCD that caused her all sorts of hell.

    To me its not that we're trying to force you to like the book, but your reasons for disliking it seem hollow is all. I thought Transformers was stupid too...

  • GoddessRachel
    GoddessRachel

    But the most damaging thing I keep coming back to, the one that really made me say "Look I can't say this book is a good example of what ex-JWs are like" is where she confirms she was making up an accusation of her father molesting her to look cool. Now JWs have in print a place they can point to in order to confirm why the two witness rule is something that is OK for cases of molestation because the kid could be making it up. Which I hopefully don't have to point out to you just how damaging this is.

    Also, I don't think this book is supposed to be an example of what ex-JW's are like, nor for that matter, do I think you can say ex-JW's are like anything. We are, each of us, individuals, are we not? Why are you trying to cram all ex-JW's into a box?

    Oh, and the incident you are referring to, where Kyria has a thought, and then exclaims some vague thing at her father, is hardly the same as making a false accusation. She never actually made the accusation. Who was she looking cool to? It was a thought in her head. You've never had an inappropriate and/or crazy thought?

    Rachel

    P.S. It's okay to not like something, simply because you don't. That's enough reason. But it sort of seems like you are trying to get us to not like the book too. That's weird.

  • brinjen
    brinjen
    Tuesday, she never accused him of anything. She was hanging around 'Lisa' and 'Lisa' had made her believe something had happened because every male around Lisa always did something. The main character was a follower, a poser, and she wrote that clear as day. So then, being the total follower she was, she supposedly approached him while he was sitting eating like a cheeto and said "I know what you did." She never explained what it was he did and he never had an idea of what she meant in the story. However, if you remember in the story she did have that one incident with Betty's unbelieving husband after the circus...

    My point exactly. I got the feeling that part was only in the book to show how screwed up her way of thinking was at the time.... and it was, she's not trying to hide that. You could use the same incident as proof that had her friend received the support she should have gotten (like counselling perhaps?) and had her abusers been reported she would have dealt with her past and what had happened to her... it's pretty clear that hadn't happened... and we all know why. And yes... there was also that circus incident...

    I gotta agree with GoddessRachel too... it's not the same being raised as a JW when you're female. You're told your entire life to submit. Thinking just isn't an option you're given as the man is the head of the household cause the bible says so. At least if you're male you're given credit for having the capability to make decisions... females are told their emotions wreck havoc which make them incapable of ever making a rational decision. Those damn ovaries...

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday

    No, Tuesday, I don't have to stop with this you don't relate. You don't. Did you get told your entire life that your opinion does not matter, that your purpose in life is to respect and submit to your husband? No, you did not. Boys and men in that religion are taught that they are above women. You don't relate. You don't relate. You don't have any clue what it was like to be a Jehovah's Witness girl, and nothing you can say will convice me otherwise.

    I guess I can turn that around to you and say you have no idea what it's like to be a JW witness male and never will. You don't know the pressure that entails in needing to find the right mate, needing to complete all the priviledges, needing to show how you can take the lead, etc. I feel that I can relate better than you think I can because my father was not at home living with me, I was raised by my mother and had an older sister living in my house. I didn't have the male role model teaching me what you're supposed to be as a JW male. I got taught the JW woman way then expected to reach the JW male goals. I was also taught that as a child of a single mother I was weak without a shepherd and to be treated like a fatherless boy. Of course that's not the way those children are treated they're cast aside like second-class citizens compared to those with both parents that are JWs.

    But yeah you can keep saying I can't relate to being treated like a second class citizen, submitting to everyone and so forth. It's just simply not the case.

    Your main issue is that you hate things that exemplifiy stereotypes of those who leave and thats your big issue with the book but like I said way back when most of us do fit said stereotypes because said stereotypes are 'normal'.

    I find that hard to believe, mathematically there are at least 5 million ex-JWs out there and there's no way the usual is to fall into those stereotypes. I also don't think that they're normal, why are people so offended by racial stereotypes but us ex-JWs are cool with being stereotyped by active JWs? I find it offensive purpotrating a stereotype. I'm irish as well, one of the stereotypes is that irish people drink too much. I don't drink at all and many irish people I know also don't drink. Everytime we see the stereotypical drunken irish-man we all get annoyed because it's not true. Or yourself being gay, do you think it's cool when people stereotype all gay people as S&M leather wearing people who will hook up with anyone they feel like?

    It's the same thing here.

    To me its not that we're trying to force you to like the book, but your reasons for disliking it seem hollow is all.

    I don't see how my reasons are hollow, I have a problem with purpotrating stereotypes which I feel this book did and it's a comedy book I didn't find funny. To me it would be no different if I saw a movie all about drunken irish-men from around Boston which was supposed to be a comedy that I didn't think had any funny jokes. I wouldn't like the movie, I would say it was because it wasn't funny and it was offensive. That's kind of the beginning and the end of it at least for me.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    The reason I have a problem with the book is that I feel it confirms every single stereotype that JWs have about ex-JWs when they leave. What do they say about ex-JWs? They end up doing drugs, drinking alot, broke, destitute, unhappy, then they say that they never really were witnesses because if they were sincere witnesses they never would've left.

    I understand what you are saying. But this is her story, and I think it's valuable for those that are ex-JW's. It's not a book to help free people from the cult, it's for those that are free already. Fully "in" JW's would not be reading this book anyway.

    While I understand your thoughts, an ex-JW that gets divorced or joins another church or has depression of any kind or has any type of fornication, etc. etc. etc., this ex-JW would be said to confirm the stereotypes. I am dealing with some issues that were present before I became a JW, and I never dealt with them while believing the WTS because the end was so imminent that Jehovah would soon straighten it all out. Now that I have decided I need to deal with those issues (that really caused me to become a JW) my wife just automatically assumes that I have issues because "I left Jehovah."

    I do believe you "get it" as far as this book is concerned, Tuesday. The book is just not for you.

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday
    It's okay to not like something, simply because you don't. That's enough reason. But it sort of seems like you are trying to get us to not like the book too. That's weird

    I keep saying that it's like 10 to 90 in favor of the book, so it obviously has to be something lost for some of us that the rest get. I got this book highly recommended to me by several people, I think that there should be a balanced view of things out there. If people feel the same way as me when they read about people falling into ex-JW stereotypes and if they don't really find 80's references in and of themselves funny they'll see my posts and think "I might not like that book".

    I probably wouldn't be so adament about sticking to my guns regarding why I dislike the book if people weren't so quick to dismiss them as valid reasonings to not like something. The "He can't relate to it, that's why he didn't like it" to me seems somewhat ridiculous. I can't relate to being a superhero like Spiderman but I still enjoyed that movie. I can't relate to being a female bounty hunter who has a crush on a criminal but I still enjoyed Janet Evanovich.

  • saywhat29
    saywhat29

    Or yourself being gay, do you think it's cool when people stereotype all gay people as S&M leather wearing people who will hook up with anyone they feel like?

    *removes the gag out of my mouth and cancels his hook up on ManHunt*

    Oh my God, I so hate that... stupid stereotypes! *shifty eyes*

    Honestly, stereotypes exist for reasons that are usually benign or deeper than most people feel like wasting time thinking over, so simple generalizations-without-deep-thought work for them (us) instead. Its not 'right' at all but they exist for reasons even if we don't like them, positive or not. Do irish people drink too much? I don't know... but being part of the working poor class (whom are more likely to suffer from alcoholism) it wouldn't surprise me. Indians (first nation people) also have that bad alcoholic stereotype. Maybe a genetic thing since alcoholism can be genetic sometime.

    And the gay stereotype is a stereotype but its one based in reality. Gay men are fucking permiscuous... because we're men who sleep with people who feel the exact same way about sex that we do- men! If women behaved exactly like they did in your fantasies straight men would be hooking up whenever/whoever they felt like too. However if you assumed I was that way just because I'm gay then you're the douchenozzle. Especially since Im going through a dry spell.

    Going back to my original point- those stereotypes JWs cast on us- its not the stereotype thats the problem but the value system they assign us. Stop accpeting their value system that the resons we left made us unworthy or less than or weak.

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