Jw's getting married BEFORE divorces are final?

by Tired of the Hypocrisy 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • undercover
    undercover

    Back in the day (I sure am feeling old, having to keep using that phrase) I remember when a divorce in the congregation was about the worst scandal you could think of.

    Even though divorce was somewhat scandalous in the "world" back then, the JWs figured themselves way above the world's standards and would never be caught in those type situations.

    But over the last 30some years, the JW divorce rate has pretty much caught up with the general population. In fact, I've heard of several JW divorces in the last couple of years compared to none at my place of business and only one or two from other acquaintances elsewhere.

    On top of that, the stigma of being a divorcee must not be that big of a deal at the hall anymore. I remember when I was in my early 20s dating a sister who was divorced and you would have thought I was bringing home a hooker by the reaction I got. But now, I see young JWs get married at 18 or so, get divorced at 20, remarry at 22 and divorce again at 24 and no one blinks an eye. I'm sure there are JC meetings and they're "counseled" by the elders but the shock and outrage among the rest of the congregation just isn't there like it used to be.

    I'm not familiar with the situation as described in the original post, but seeing how JWs have voted against God on the divorcing principle by doing getting them anyway, I can see the Society relaxing punishment, though they'll keep harping on "god hates a divorce" schtick to try to impress everyone how righteous JWs supposedly are.

  • blondie
    blondie

    In those days, in many countries where the Catholic Church held sway, divorce of any kind was not allowed, not even the jw "scriptural" one of adultery. If a jw wanted to get a divorce based on adultery it was not legal per the secular authorities.

    *** w77 3/15 Maintaining Marriage in Honor Before God and Men ***

    WHERE CAESAR’S RECOGNITION IS UNAVAILABLE

    24 Understanding the relative nature of Caesar’s authority regarding marriage is here helpful. Take, for example, those areas where, either because of the dominance of some religion or for other reasons, the law does not allow for any divorce, not even on the Scriptural grounds of “fornication” (por?nei′a). A man whose wife proved unfaithful to him might have left her and thereafter formed a union with another mate, by whom he may even have a family. He may then learn the truth of God’s Word and, in obedience to that Word, desire to be baptized as a disciple of God’s Son. Because the national law does not agree with God’s law regarding divorce and remarriage, he cannot obtain a divorce and legalize his present union. What can he do?

    25 If his circumstances permit, he might go to a neighboring land that does grant divorce and obtain such there and then remarry under the laws of that land. This might serve to add some honor to his union, although upon returning to his homeland the marriage might not be recognized by the “Caesar” ruling there. If he cannot reasonably do this, he should get a legal separation from his estranged, legal mate, or whatever the local law makes possible. Thereafter he should make a written statement to the local congregation pledging faithfulness to his present mate and declaring his agreement to obtain a legal marriage certificate if the estranged legal wife should die or if other circumstances should make possible the obtaining of such registration. If his present mate likewise seeks baptism, she would also make such a signed statement.

    26 In one South American country, although the law provides for annulment of marriage in cases of bigamy, applications for such annulment are often simply ignored by “Caesar.” Consider, then, a man who, while already having a legal living wife, separates from her and marries another woman and falsely obtains a legal certification, thereby becoming bigamous. If, upon learning Bible truth, he seeks baptism, he may find that his efforts to straighten out the legal situation regarding his current marriage are frustrated by the lack of interest on the part of the civil authorities. If unable to do anything to elevate in honor his present union through Caesar’s courts or authorities, how could he proceed? He could sign a similar declaration pledging faithfulness and file this with the congregation. Then he could be accepted for baptism, as could his mate by doing the same.

    27 In a certain west African country, it may take up to ten years to obtain a divorce. Would a person desirous of being baptized, but needing a divorce so as to establish legally his or her present marital union, be obliged to postpone baptism for such a period of years? It does not seem proper that the lack of Caesar’s legal recognition should block him from showing his faith in the sin-atoning power of Christ’s sacrifice by taking the vital step of baptism and thus gaining the privilege of an approved relationship with God. (Compare the apostle’s statement at Acts 11:17 as to humans’ inability to “hinder” God in his approving of persons.) Bible examples indicate that unnecessary delay in taking the step of baptism is not advisable. (Acts 2:37-41; 8:34-38; 16:30-34; 22:16) Having initiated the legal process of divorce, such person would then provide the congregation with a statement pledging faithfulness, thereby establishing his determination to maintain his current union in honor while he continues to follow through on his efforts to gain as well the legal recognition that Caesar provides,

    28 Persons may move to another country and while there they may learn the truth and wish to be baptized. In order to obtain legal recognition of their existing marital relationship, they may need first to obtain a divorce from a previous mate. It may be that the country to which they have moved has provisions for divorce but such provisions may not be available to them as foreigners. For example, many persons from other European countries have moved into Germany seeking employment. While Germany has provisions for divorce, these provisions do not embrace most noncitizens. In such cases, also, the individuals desiring to be baptized and seeking to establish the honorableness and permanence of their existing marital relationship would sign a declaration pledging faithfulness.

    29 These same principles would apply for a baptized Christian who finds that “Caesar’s” laws would not grant him legal recognition in his exercise of God-given rights regarding divorce and remarriage. For example, in countries that do not recognize the God-given right to divorce an adulterous mate and remarry, an individual whose mate proves unfaithful (and from whom he therefore chooses to separate, not forgiving her) should submit the clear evidence of this infidelity to the elders of the congregation. Then, if at some future time he (or she) were to decide to take another mate, this could be done in an honorable way, the parties to the marriage signing statements pledging faithfulness and the determination to gain legal recognition whenever such should become feasible.

    30 The signing of such a written statement pledging faithfulness is viewed by the congregation as a putting of oneself on record before God and man that the signer will be just as faithful to his or her existing marital relationship as he or she would be if the union were one validated by civil authorities. Such declaration is viewed as no less binding than one made before a marriage officer representing a “Caesar” government of the world. In reality, it is not the particular kind of document made but the fact that the individual makes the declaration before God that gives it its greatest weight and solemnity.

    31 How might such a declaration be worded? It could contain a statement such as the following:

    “I, ......., do here declare that I have accepted .......... as my mate in marital relationship; that I have done all within my ability to obtain legal recognition of this relationship by the proper public authorities and that it is because of having been unable to do so that I therefore make this declaration pledging faithfulness in this marital relationship. I recognize this relationship as a binding tie before Jehovah God and before all persons, to be held to and honored in full accord with the principles of God’s Word. I will continue to seek the means to obtain legal recognition of this relationship by the civil authorities and if at any future time a change in circumstances makes this possible I promise to legalize this union.

    “Signed this .......... day of ........., 19..... Witnesses to my signing: .....................................”

    32 As indicated above, this declaration should be signed by the one making the declaration and also by two others as witnesses, and the date should be noted thereon. It is advisable for copies of the statement pledging faithfulness to be kept by each of the persons involved and by the congregation with which they are associated, and one copy should be sent to the Branch office of the Watch Tower Society in that area. It would also be beneficial for an announcement to be made to the congregation that such a declaration has been made so that all will be aware of the conscientious steps that are being taken to uphold the honorableness of the marriage relationship.

    33 Where the person is unable to gain “Caesar’s” recognition but takes the proper steps to establish his marriage with the congregation, he must realize that whatever consequences result to him as far as the world outside is concerned are his sole responsibility and must be faced by him. For example, if some legal issue, involving property or inheritance rights, arises due to an earlier marriage union, the individual cannot claim “Caesar’s” judicial protection as regards his new, unrecognized union.

    KEEPING BASIC PRINCIPLES CLEAR

    34 From country to country, marriage and divorce legislation presents a multitude of different angles and aspects. Rather than becoming entangled in a confusion of technicalities, the Christian, or the one desiring to become a disciple of God’s Son, can be guided by basic Scriptural principles that hold true in all cases.

    35 God’s view is of first concern. So, first of all the person must consider whether that one’s present relationship, or the relationship into which he or she contemplates entering, is one that could meet with God’s approval or whether, in itself, it violates the standards of God’s Word. Take, for example, the situation where a man lives with a wife but also spends time living with another woman as a concubine. As long as such a state of concubinage prevails, the relationship of the second woman can never be harmonized with Christian principles, nor could any declaration on the part of the woman or the man make it do so. The only right course is cessation of the relationship. Similarly with an incestuous relationship with a member of one’s immediate family, or a homosexual relationship or other such situation condemned by God’s Word. (Matt. 19:5, 6; 1 Tim. 3:2; 1 Cor. 5:1) It is not the lack of any legal validation that makes such relationships unacceptable; they are in themselves unscriptural and, hence, immoral. Hence, a person involved in such a situation could not make any kind of ‘declaration of faithfulness,’ since it would have no merit in God’s eyes.

    36 If the relationship is such that it can have God’s approval, then a second principle to consider is that one should do all one can to establish the honorableness of one’s marital union in the eyes of all. (Heb. 13:4) A person seeking baptism may be one who, in the past, separated from a legal mate and, without having obtained a divorce, entered into a marital relationship with another person. Considerable time may have passed, and perhaps children have resulted. So, upon learning the truth the person cannot reasonably be expected to go back to his first mate and thus try to refashion his life according to his previous circumstances. But now, in ‘desisting from sins,’ he must determine that his life henceforth will be lived according to God’s will.—1 Pet. 4:1-3; compare 1 Corinthians 7:17-24.

    37 What then? If divorce is possible, then such step should now be taken so that, having obtained the divorce (on whatever legal grounds may be available), the present union can receive civil validation as a recognized marriage. These same things would be true of the person who, before learning the truth, has become guilty of bigamy. He should take the necessary steps to have the matter resolved legally (as by annulment and/or divorce) so that he or she may now be recognized as the legal mate of only one person.

    38 Finally, if the marital relationship is not one out of harmony with the principles of God’s Word, and if one has done all that can reasonably be done to have it recognized by civil authorities and has been blocked in doing so, then a declaration pledging faithfulness can be signed. In some cases, as has been noted, the extreme slowness of official action may make the accomplishing of legal steps a matter of many, many years of effort. Or it may be that the costs represent a crushingly heavy burden that the individual would need years to be able to meet. In such cases the declaration pledging faithfulness will provide the congregation with the basis for viewing the existing marriage as honorable, while the individual continues conscientiously to work out the legal aspects to the best of his ability. A fact worth noting is that in many communities, and even in entire countries, the people themselves give little importance to the legal factors involved in marriage and are far more affected by what they actually see as evidence of a faithful marriage union. Nevertheless, even here the Christian should sincerely endeavor to take whatever steps are available, or that open up for him, to establish the honorableness of his union beyond question.

    39 By keeping in mind the basic principles presented, the Christian should be able to approach the matter in a balanced way, neither underestimating nor overestimating the validation offered by the political state. He (or she) should always give primary concern to God’s view of the union. Along with this, every effort should be made to set a fine example of faithfulness and devotion to one’s mate, thus keeping the marriage “honorable among all.” Such course will bring God’s blessing and result to the honor and praise of the Author of marriage, Jehovah God.—1 Cor. 10:31-33.

    [Footnotes]

    In Roman Law, the “sole necessary condition for marriage” was “the consent of the parties” with no preliminary license, ceremony or other validation required. (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Vol. VII, pp. 198, 199) Thus, if a man proposed marriage to a woman and she consented, this was all that was legally required to make a marriage effective.

    As reference works show, the Roman Catholic Church eventually claimed for itself the exclusive right to legislate regarding marriage, bringing forth its own regulations and restrictions and holding that civil authorities must be bound by these. The Protestant Reformers swung very much in the other direction and placed marriage almost entirely in the hands of the civil authorities. In England, Scotland and Ireland the civil ceremony was introduced in 1653 to free the Church from secular affairs. A French law of 1792 made the civil ceremony obligatory upon all citizens on the principle that “the citizen belongs to the state, irrespective of religion.” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Vol. VII, pp. 199, 200)

  • orbison11
    orbison11

    my x got married 12 hours, yes 12 hours after our divorce was final

    what you say, they arent to date, etc, until they are divorced,,well never mind, he had already finished his year in jail (oh wait he got an ankle bracelet while in jail as the jails were full)

    but no problem, he was not public reproved, disfellowshipped, etc, although i was,,hhmm

    still a'good brother' in good standing, although he is now, or has recently in the past, fooled around on this wife of his

    i cant wait for 'karma' to kick in:)

    orb

  • blondie
    blondie

    How about this basis of divorce. Husband or wife confesses to other mate and a letter is involved:

    *** w77 10/1 pp. 607-608 Questions From Readers ***

    Questions From Readers

    ? My unbelieving husband admitted to me that he has another woman. Is his admission sufficient ground for a Scriptural divorce?

    In some cases if a Christian’s unbelieving mate admits to committing immorality, that would provide a Scriptural basis for a divorce, which, in turn, would free the innocent Christian for remarriage if desired.

    Jehovah God’s law to the ancient nation of Israel made provision for divorce on various grounds. (Deut. 24:1, 2) Adultery, homosexuality and bestiality were bases for ending a marriage; the guilty person was to be executed. (Deut. 22:22-24; Lev. 18:22, 23) However, the Law set forth this important requirement: "At the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses the one dying should be put to death. He will not be put to death at the mouth of one witness." (Deut. 17:6; 19:15; Num. 35:30) Being a "lover of righteousness and justice," Jehovah required that such matters be determined on the basis of proof, of witnesses, not merely suspicion. (Ps. 33:5) This, of course, was stated as regards applying the death penalty, not as regards a divorce action.

    Another situation dealt with in the Law also illustrates the importance of proof. What was a man to do if he suspected that his wife had committed adultery but she denied it and there were no witnesses? God’s law outlined a step that could be taken, but it was a drastic one that could have lasting effects for the wife if she was guilty or for the husband if she was innocent. She could be brought before the priest and made to share in a prescribed procedure involving drinking some special water. If she was guilty, she would experience the divine punishment of her ‘thigh falling away,’ apparently meaning that her sexual parts would atrophy and she would lose her ability to conceive. (Num. 5:12-31) Evidently in such cases the adulterous wife, though receiving this extraordinary punishment from God, because she denied guilt and there were not the required two witnesses, was not executed.

    What is the situation today in the Christian congregation? Is it possible to obtain substantial testimony as to the grounds for a Scriptural divorce?

    Jesus himself stated that for his followers the only ground for divorce, such as would free a person for remarriage, is if one’s mate commits porneia, gross sexual immorality. (Matt. 19:9) Would there be sufficient ground for divorce if a Christian wife merely suspected that her husband was guilty of adultery? No, for the Christian Greek Scriptures carry forward the principle of a matter’s being established by two or three witnesses, as a balanced sense of justice requires. (John 8:17, 18; 1 Tim. 5:19; Heb. 10:28) So, if a wife merely suspected her husband of adultery, but hedenieditandtherewerenowitnesses to confirm it, she would not have sufficient basis for establishing with the Christian congregation that she had a right to divorce him and thus be free to remarry.

    In some cases, though, an unbelieving mate admits to being immoral. A husband, for instance, might even boast of it to his wife as a taunt to hurt her. She might choose to overlook his waywardness. But what if she feels she cannot or should not? Is his confession enough proof?

    In this situation it is not as if he professes innocence or adamantly denies being guilty of adultery. Rather, he admits it to her, though for the sake of his reputation he might not be willing to own up to it in a court of law or before other persons. What can the wife do?

    Since she is part of the clean Christian congregation, she should realize the importance of handling the matter properly so that, after divorcing him, if she later remarried there would be no question about her keeping ‘the marriage bed without defilement.’ (Heb. 13:4) To that end she could give the elders representing the congregation a letter outlining her situation, stating that her unbelieving husband confessed to her that he had committed immorality. And she could state that in accord with Matthew 19:9 she wishes to put him away, obtaining a legal divorce and thus ending the marriage Scripturally and legally.

    The elders would consider whether there is any known reason to conclude other than that the unbelieving mate had been immoral. If not, they could accept her signed statement.

    ‘But,’ someone might say, ‘is it not possible to submit a deceptive, untruthful statement, saying that her husband confessed immorality when he actually never said that?’ Actually, it would be gross deception for anyone to try that. David once prayed: "You have examined my heart, you have made inspection by night, you have refined me; you will discover that I have not schemed." (Ps. 17:3) Conversely, Jehovah is well aware when someone does scheme and He will make sure that the person does not lastingly succeed. Hence, if a Christian woman goes on record as stating that her husband has admitted immorality, Jehovah knows the facts. As the Bible says: "There is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting."—Heb. 4:13; Prov. 5:21; Jer. 16:17.

    So if there is no reason to doubt the wife’s statement, the congregation elders can leave the matter between her and Jehovah. In that case she would have to bear before God the responsibility as to the actuality of her husband’s immoral course, which would be the Scriptural basis for ending the marriage even if the legal divorce were obtained on some other ground .

  • DaCheech
    DaCheech

    an elder once admitted this from the stage.

    they always run the new light twist and think that this will upbuild the hall.

    the brainwashed ones will suck any smoke they blow.

    i obviously realize the hypocrisy

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    The Watchtower stance was repeated in 1986 also, with a little more brevity :

    "16 What if the laws of a land do not allow any divorce, even on the ground of sexual immorality? An innocent mate in such a case might be able to obtain a divorce in a country where divorce is permitted. Circumstances, of course, may not allow for this. But some form of legal separation may be available in one’s own country and could be sought. Whatever the case, the innocent mate could separate from the guilty one and present definite proof of Scriptural ground for divorce to the overseers in the local congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses. What if that person were later to decide to take another mate? The congregation would not act to remove him as an adulterer if he provided the congregation with a written statement containing a vow of faithfulness to the present mate and an agreement to obtain a legal marriage certificate if the former marriage should be dissolved either legally or by death. Nevertheless, the individual would have to face whatever consequences might result as far as the world outside the congregation is concerned. For the world does not generally recognize that God’s law is superior to human laws and that human laws have only relative authority.—Compare Acts 5:29."

    True Peace and Security—How Can You Find It?
    p 148 (1986)

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Re: BB post, whatever happened to being good, law abiding JWs? Why in the world is it okay to commit bigamy in a country that doesn't allow a divorce? Why isn't the person counselled to just suck it up and live a celibate life?

    Now this is absolutely insane. And I know I studied the Peace and Security book and I don't remember this jumping out at me.

    St. Ann

  • dinah
    dinah

    One thing I've noticed is that whether you get df'd or reproved for divorcing under questionable circumstances depends on how well-connected you are to the elders or the PO.

    Also, a friend of mine from the UK knew her husband was having an affair. The elders told her she couldn't get a scriptural divorce unless she had proof. The scumbag wouldn't confess, although his car was outside his lady's house overnight. The elders in her congregation said that wasn't proof. I couldn't believe that! Here in Alabama, they would assume the worst and haul you in the backroom.

    I'm also surprised at how Dubs will re-marry before the ink is dry on their divorce. I think the divorce rate among the Witnesses is comparable to the divorce rate in the "world" Getting married at 17-18 years old is never a good thing.

  • DaCheech
    DaCheech

    witlesses encourage people to date less than 6 months and marry..... for they tell these young ones that "temptation of the flesh is great"

  • wha happened?
    wha happened?

    I dated my current wife before the ink was dry. Ex was df'd and we had been apart for 4 years. One of the elders got wind of it and asked if we were dating. I said no. He dropped it and we kept dating for a year until the paper was signed and I moved on.

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