I need proof for my wife that NW Translation is not correct (page 12)

isaacaustin

Boyzone your assumption is that every other name includes Gods own but this just isn't the case God gave Jesus authority and Glory over everything but this did not include himself the scriptures are clear about this.

Reniaa, nothing can not be above the name of God. Yet the name Jesus was put above all names. No name is above the name of Jesus. What does that equate the name of Jesus to. Think!

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

You make an assumption but the scriptures do not back it up.

The Father, the source of all authority has put everything under his agent's feet. Again, everything is under Jesus feet. God can not be under anything. Who does that equate Jesus to (in nature, not in personage)? They are one spiritual flesh, both are God in nature.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Headship- means differences in role...the same as Adam and Eve had differences in role while sharing the same nature. This above verse simply shows Jesus dual nature.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Disproves modalism. That's all. The 1st 16 verses disprove the WTs 2 class doctrine.

Earnest

Earnest : I thought Jesus was in hell for three days after his death. Is there a paradise in hell?

Chalam : OK the main reasoning given to this teaching is found in these verses Acts 2:27, Romans 10:6-7, Ephesians 4:8-9, 1 Peter 3:18-20 If you check them out, none of the say Christ, while His body was in the grave went to Hell. There are explanations for these verses. I recommend the book Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem if you are interested.

Chalam, I have not yet had opportunity to consult the book you recommend but the fact that Jesus went to hell for three days is a teaching upheld by the very churches who endorse the translation of Luke 23:43 to read that Jesus promised the thief he would be with him in paradise the same day he died. Below are the relevant sections of the Apostles Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and the Nicene Creed.

Apostles Creed

Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell: The third day he rose again from the dead: He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

Athanasian Creed

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

Nicene Creed

He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father;

Now if Jesus descended into hell on the day he died and rose again on the third day then how could he have been in paradise that same day? If he was not in paradise that day then either he misled the thief dying alongside him, or perhaps the NWT has it right.

Chalam

Earnest, I have not yet had opportunity to consult the book you recommend but the fact that Jesus went to hell for three days is a teaching upheld by the very churches who endorse the translation of Luke 23:43 to read that Jesus promised the thief he would be with him in paradise the same day he died. Below are the relevant sections of the Apostles Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and the Nicene Creed.

Hi Earnest,

Thanks for your post. Just because they teach it does not mean that it is true! I was brought up with that creed but these days I suspect Jesus went to Heaven, after all Jesus should know what He was talking about. The bible talks of His sacrifice in His death, His body, His blood, not going to Hell for three days.

Anyhow Wayne Grudem deals with the matter in the book Systematic Theology. I highly recommend it. He presents the verses and reasoning for both sides of thorny theological issues and his own conclusion. I do not agree with him on everything but he is a good, sound theological dude and the book an invaluable resource.

All the best,

Stephen

middleman

Wow what fire here and GREAT Bible ping-pong! This is entertaining.

Blessings...

davegod

Tell her to read it.

Earnest

Just because they teach it does not mean that it is true! I was brought up with that creed but these days I suspect Jesus went to Heaven, after all Jesus should know what He was talking about. The bible talks of His sacrifice in His death, His body, His blood, not going to Hell for three days.

Hi Stephen,

I do not often find myself arguing in support of these creeds but it seems to me they rely on Peter's speech in Acts 2:14-36 where he says, according to the King James Version :

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

The resurrection meant that Christ's soul was not left in hell and his flesh was not corrupted. So then, prior to the resurrection his soul was in hell. Otherwise it makes no sense to say his soul was not left in hell. If his soul was in hell between the time of his death and resurrection then it wasn't in paradise, whether that be earthly or heavenly. Then just what did Jesus mean at Luke 23:43?

Earnest

Narkissos

(Seeing Earnest posting made me open this thread. :))

The tradition of Jesus' descent to Hades builds on a number of scriptures, especially 1 Peter 3:18f (but also Matthew 12:40//; 27:52f; Romans 10:7; Ephesians 4:9; Hebrews 13:20). Although it mustn't be projected artificially on any particular text (there is room for much variation in the NT scenarii of Jesus' death and resurrection), I don't feel it is incompatible with the general reading of Luke 23:43 inasmuch as "paradise" (like "Abraham's bosom" in chapter 16) still stands for a condition of the dead (the so-called "intermediate" state) rather than final bliss which depends on resurrection (the passage of Matthew 27 is much more problematic from this perspective, since it describes a resurrection of the saints at Jesus' death, reminiscent of Elisha's posthumous miracle -- of course, for the NWT it is not a resurrection at all...). The fact that in Luke 23:46 Jesus commits his spirit to the Father (it's also in spirit that Jesus acts in the underworld by 1 Peter) points to the same direction imo.

Chalam

Hi Earnest,

Depends which verse you use. For example see the NIV

Acts 2:31 (New International Version)

31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay.

Now the Greek is here hell and could mean Hades or Hell or else the physical "grave"as the NIV goes for.

I don't know if it matters that much. We can ask Jesus one day. Maybe he went to both? The important thing is to be saved from the second death :)

All the best,

Stephen

Skip it

Holy sh-t, Just tell her to skip it. By the way it didn't work for me.

I need proof for my wife that NW Translation is not correct

Acts 2:31 (New International Version)

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