I like red herrings.
And red snapper too! Yummy!
Okay, goota go for now ... will return.
Intellectual Honesty - What it Means & Does not Mean
by Amazing 29 Replies latest jw friends
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Amazing
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minimus
"So you didn't have Blondie in mind"?
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quietlyleaving
You did not acknowledge that I provided you with a link to wiki when you accused me of intellectual dishonesty in not providing the whole article.
You only quoted the convenient part to your argument ... and that is, shall we say, similar to the methods of a certain religious publishing corporation known as the Watchtower Society. They too provide references, at times, but the impressions created are still false. One can look at the hundreds of references they cite in their anti-evolution book called "Creation." They are intellectually dishonest in how they do it ... that is make a partial quote, and then cite the reference. Whoopty-and-doo!
Sorry your arguement that you provided a link does not cut the muster.
I do have another obligation on my time right now .. I will take this up later.
nough said
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no more kool aid
I was just sitting here showing my son this thread. He is just starting to learn about fallacies in school. We were saying that these should really be applied to anything you read. When I started reading the WT publications and listening to talks through these glasses I woke up. You really begin to see why they are anti education and discourage any outside reading material. If the Awake magazine offers a college education equivalency why did I not learn about fallacies until I went back to college?
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hemp lover
"The results of false arguments: It causes hard feelings, does not result in understanding facts, nor in swaying anyone to a better opinion. Instead, people feel threatened, strike back, and lash out at those with whom they disagree, ending up with more enemies when the dust settles."
Case in point: your ridiculous statement that liberals consider personal wealth to be unfair.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/174217/1/Taxes-tea-parties-and-the-economy
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BurnTheShips
I think that there is a great deal of truth in Amazing's point. However that is not the subject of this thread.
BTS
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Amazing
Hemp Lover:
Case in point: your ridiculous statement that liberals consider personal wealth to be unfair.
Counter Point: Liberal Democrat polticians imply such things all the time, that it is unfair for some people to have wealth and others to be without such wealth ... that wealthy people are lucky and win the lottery of life [Gebhardt, (D) FMC] ... and this formed the basis of why they want to tax the "rich" to make the playing field "fair" and "equal." I have yet to hear a Liberal credit hard work, perserverence, good planning and business skills as the cause of wealth, and that those who have such wealth earn it and deserve it. Intellectual Honesty: If I am wrong, so be it. Prove me wrong - I want to be wrong - I want Liberals to think otherwise than I have described. I am begging to be wrong, and I deeply desire to apologize for saying what I have said about Liberals. Find a bonafide Liberal, a known "liberal" Democrat, and provide a supporting reference quoting him or her as saying something different "in principle or concept" than what I have alleged.
Minimus: Blondie is among many who have misunderstood and misapplied the meaning of "intellectual dishonesty." She was not the focus of my creating this thread, but yes I recall her reaction, and it did factor in as one of many similar exchanges I have had. I left her name out, because I was not interested in making her the center of a debate, as it is not about her ... it is about the stated title. But, since you introduced her name, and asked about it, more than once, then you now have my answer.
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Lady Lee
Amazing
I want to thank you for the discussion we had the other day. I appreciated it.
You make an interesting point here
Intellectual Honesty: If I am wrong, so be it. Prove me wrong - I want to be wrong - I want Liberals to think otherwise than I have described.
In that discussion I think we both came away with a new way of seeing things. I think that is the way true discussion should be. An opportunity to share our beliefs and still be open to the views of others as well as the possibility that we may only be seeing things myopically.
Intellectual dishonesty prevents us from doing that
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Amazing
Lady Lee,
In that discussion I think we both came away with a new way of seeing things. I think that is the way true discussion should be. An opportunity to share our beliefs and still be open to the views of others as well as the possibility that we may only be seeing things myopically.
Likewise, I enjoyed our discussion very much. You are among those capable of exchanging thoughts and ideas without feeling threatened ... which tells me that you have a good mind, and are educated ... which I recall you saying that you did return to college.
I learned long ago that it is okay to be wrong ... starting with realizing that the JWs are wrong, and making the decision to leave. Your point about being myopic is spot on ... and most people, me included, can never really be perfectly balanced and see everything for what it is ... we all have our biases and leanings. What works for me is that I have learned to admit my biases, and by being open and honest, I give myself room to admit being wrong, and to be able to change ... maybe to a new bias!
It is difficult to be open and honest, and a learned skill for most. It is very unnerving to have to abandoned a cherished view, position, belief, or way of thinking ... and, for me, it takes being slapped upside the head once in a while to get me back on track.
Thanks again for the good exchanges ... and I look forward to more.
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Lady Lee
You make an excellent point about the willingness to be wrong. I grew up in a family where being wrong meant being beaten. And I do mean beaten. That was pre WTS. Then they entered the picture and being wrong meant certain death. I wasn't a stupid kid. (yes I went on to college and university) Being wrong could kill you.
So I worked at trying to be perfect. Well that is bound to leave you feeling inadequate. But I sure tried. It wasn't until I left the witnesses and got into therapy that I learned the being human with the ability to be wrong and learn new things that changed my world-view was far better and easier than being perfect.
And I agree new beliefs sometimes need to change too. Witnesses are taught it is the WTS' way or no way/death. I think that when we live in an atmosphere of rigid beliefs we often tend to swing to the other extreme. So living with a myriad of rules would take us to wanting to live with no rules. And I tried it. It doesn't work. I see a lot of people here try it only to get burned again. And we may swing back and forth for a while until we find that place where we can find that middle ground. It probably won't be dead center between the two extremes.
I found that my middle ground is in some ways closer to conservative worldview rather than a liberal one. That is what works for me.
I also had to give up on the idea that not everyone has to arrive at the set of beliefs I have. They work for me but it probably won't work for the next person. So each person is free to determine their own set of beliefs and I don't have to force them to accept mine. And I will probably shift my views many times in the years to come. (excuse me but I'm just thinking out loud here)
And you are right. It isn't easy to admit you are wrong. I went from being in a family where being wrong could get you killed (literally because I watched my father try to strangle my mother so I knew death was a possibility) to a religion that told me being wrong meant death. Those are huge hurdles to get over; enough to the point where I can admit being wrong.
Sometimes we are so intent on our perspective that we don't really listen to the other person. Another lesson learned:
I had a client a while back that was telling me about an incident of abuse that she went through. It was eerie because for every piece of the memory she said I had an exact counterpart. She said the next piece and I just sat and listened but inside I was saying "OMG I know where this is going!" But I held my tongue and just listened. More of the same. It really was eerie. As she came to the end that I was so sure of . . . her ending changed. Totally left field for me.
Well I worked with her on her experience and after she left I had to seriously consider what had just happened. We can be so sure of where something is going. We see the beginning and the middle and we think we know the end. And we can still be so wrong. I was so glad I didn't interrupt her. A + B does not always = C. Sometimes A + B = 3.
I have sat here on JWD for almost 8 years ago, about 10 weeks after you arrived. We've seen a lot. I know I have changed a lot. I've watched people come in and swing back and forth searching for their middle ground. And a lot of them got hurt just as I did; or hurt others like I did.
Hopefully we learn and grow from those experiences. And that is where intellectual honesty comes in. Are we at a point where we can allow the possibility that we are wrong and need to change the way we see the world around us and more importantly within us.