The Issue of Christ as Mediator

by passwordprotected 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    You know, the issue that seems so important to main stream evangelical christians, that is, "the divinity of Christ" issue, struck me as supremely odd as an atheist-nominally-raised-catholic, who was surrounded by Bible thumping baptists through high school.

    It never even occurred to me that Jesus was god until after I started studying w/JW's. That chapter in the Live Forever book on Jesus was a breeze, but it was dreaded by the one conducting the study because of concerns regarding my former catholc upbringing.

    It always baffled me from my agnostic-JW-christian position (because that's really what I really became all these years) as to what psychological mechanism causes otherwise normal, rational adults to abandon logic and reason and "occams razor" when it came to issues as to the identity of Christ.

    I wondered what possible benefit to them was this psychological abberration...

    It didn't seem to make explaining the bible to atheists or anyone else to whom reason was an important factor any easier, so there had to be something that this was getting them.

    I used to believe that this was evidence that Satan existed, and that he was enjoying the fact that Jesus, who didn't consider seizing the authority of God while in heaven, who refused to do an act of obeisance to him, who refused to allow himself to be made king, and who prayed in earnestness in the garden of gethsemane to HIS God, and who cried out to the one who could save him from the cross (whatever) was being worshipped AS GOD.

    It is obviously a bit more complicated than that. I suspect that the plasticity of the use of the term "deity" in addition to STM (short term memory) disorders in main stream believers in this sort of christology to be a good part of the problem in the same vein as those who confuse the word evolution to mean both micro (from which we fully understand the mechanism for change, and for which we have proof) and macro evolution (the change between these, and the origination of life itself)...

    If main stream christians want to make any headway with JW's they'd better do like the WT does and leave the lunatic logic of Jesus=God on the back burner until they've destroyed the authority structure of the JW's. Even launching into a discussion of Jesus=God stuff will make a JW who is at complete odds w/the borg to prefer the borg over the emotional logic-shape-shifters which they appear to be.

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    in my above post, I'm sure you'll get that I meant Jesus didn't do an act of worship to Satan... (I wish we could edit. I hate spelling errors and I'd prefer not having to use White Smoke for all my posts)

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    I agree that WTS mind-control needs to be dismantled block by block. That's why, to me at least, seeing 12 ex-JWs at our church recently was so refreshing, whether or not all of them agreed with what was being preached from the platform; each of those ex-JWs had sufficiently dismantled the WTS mind-control that they were able to step foot in a church.

    I think however, that the WTS needs to try and avoid the R&F thinking overly much about the mediatorship of Christ. Obviously they only allow the "little flock" to have Jesus as mediator, which in itself is awful enough in itself, but when the actual theological mechanics of Christ as mediator are examined it's impossible to marry with WTS dogma.

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    I've asked Witnesses this and never got an answer . . . What's the dispute that needs mediating? And who are the principles?


  • Pilchard
    Pilchard

    I've asked Witnesses this and never got an answer . . . What's the dispute that needs mediating? And who are the principles?

    It is not a dispute.


    Jesus is negotiating the terms and conditions of the Covenant arrangement. He is performing the same role with the New Covenant that Moses did with the Old Covenant.


    Moses presented God's terms to the nation of Israel and he extracted Israel's promise to abide by the terms and conditions or suffer the consequences.


    There are many types of "mediator" but when it comes to mediating the inauguration of a covenant between God and man, them Moses is the Biblical example.

    Old Covenant:

    Obey Mosaic Law => Nation and Kingdom of priests

    *** Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice, and keep my covenant, then you shall be my own possession from among all peoples; for all the earth is mine;

    *** Exod 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”


    New Covenant:

    Remain faithful till death => Nation and Kingdom of priests

    *** Luke 22:28 But you are those who have continued with me in my trials.

    *** Luke 22:29 I confer on you a kingdom, even as my Father conferred on me,

    *** Luke 22:30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. You will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”


    So the Old Covenant and the New Covenant were for the same purpose, to provide a holy nation as the 'seed' of Abraham's promise for the fulfilment of the greater - Abramic Covenant that ALL nations would be blessed through Abraham's seed.

    So the New Covenant (like the Old Covenant) is simply an agreement through which a nation of King Priests are gathered in order to be the means by which God provides his promised blessings to the rest of mankind.

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    Welcome to the forum, Pilchard.

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    It is not a dispute.

    Jesus is negotiating the terms and conditions of the Covenant arrangement. He is performing the same role with the New Covenant that Moses did with the Old Covenant.



    Negotiations don't arise from agreement, the need for negotiations arise from dispute. What's disputed? Negotiations imply weakness, a willingness to compromise. What's Jesus willing to compromise?

    A "covenant" is a contract. Why does god need a contract? What terms are being negotiated? Why do the terms need to be negotiated? Negotiations imply equality of principles. Who are the principles?

    What are the conditions? Why are the conditions being negotiated?

    Moses was a man. Jesus is a ghost. Why did god use a man and now is using a ghost?

  • Pilchard
    Pilchard

    Negotiations don't arise from agreement, the need for negotiations arise from dispute. What's disputed? Negotiations imply weakness, a willingness to compromise. What's Jesus willing to compromise?

    A "covenant" is a contract. Why does god need a contract? What terms are being negotiated? Why do the terms need to be negotiated? Negotiations imply equality of principles. Who are the principles?

    What are the conditions? Why are the conditions being negotiated?

    Moses was a man. Jesus is a ghost. Why did god use a man and now is using a ghost?

    It does not matter how you want to word it.

    Moses did it for the Old Covenant and now Jesus does it for the New Covenant.

    What is being negotiated? The AGREEMENT of the participants.

    Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice, and keep my covenant, then you shall be my own possession from among all peoples; for all the earth is mine;

    Exod 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

    Exod 19:7 Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which Jehovah commanded him.

    Exod 19:8 All the people answered together, and said, “All that Jehovah has spoken we will do.” Moses reported the words of the people to Jehovah.

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    No answers huh? Oh well, I'm used to that.

  • wobble
    wobble

    The scripture in 1 Timothy chapter 2 v 5 has nothing to do with the "New Covenant", it is simly talking about Timothy praying that all men, including Kings, come to a knowledge of the truth. They can only do this through the mediator, Jesus Christ.

    Love

    Wobble

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