by tenyearsafter 41 Replies latest jw friends
I was asked an interesting question by a JW relative and was not exactly sure how to answer it...thought I would throw it out to the scholars on the board:
What was the expectation of an afterlife for faithful ones living before Jesus was sacrificed?...did they believe they would have an afterlife on earth or in heaven?
On earth, but I aint no scholar.
Warlock
It's hardly a scholarly question tenyearsafter (you taking the piss or what? lol.
According to watchtower edict all those living prior to Jesus canibal feast, including all the bible luminaries such as Noah, Moses, King David and the like are destined to live on the earth as "princes." Rutherford even used this doctrine as a pretext to build himself several palacial mansions.
Beth Sarim House of Princes:
I do not recall any of them speaking about an afterlife now that you mention it. The word does not appear in the Hebrew scriptures. This is purely an Greek Scriptures idea. I don't think they entertained ANY thought of an afterlife. Jewish tradition may say different but its not in the Bible before Jesus. Its just another doctrine introduced by the Christians. W.Once
Dosn't Paul say that""they were longing for a better country-A HEAVENLY ONE" Heb11v16. (N.I.V verse quoted in part,and shouty capitals mine)
Now he does not say that they understood about going to heaven,but he does say that their faith would lead them there. No?
Vs 10 shows that the City that these men of faith looked to is (heavenly) New Jerusalem.
I can't think of any scripture that says they will live on earth,if it did it would contradict Heb.11.
Love
Wobble
In the Hebrew bible, with the patriarchs and on many other occasions, you can read phrases to the effect like: "...and he lived a fulfilled life and was satisfied and satiated and saw his offspring prosper, and then he died and was assembled to his fathers."
So basically, that would habe been "the expectation of an afterlife for faithful ones living before Jesus was sacrificed".
Our contemporary (i.e., typically Christian) hunger for infinite prolongation of life is a very modern invention. If you had experienced all there is to experience, if you see the next generations well on their way, and if you have no concept of progress in our contemporary sense - why would you desperately cling to "the same thing over and over again"?
Of course there is the idea of the Messiah who will eventually restore Israel to her proper status (and Jews pray for it to happen during their lifetime, God willing), but that is basically a political hope that is not immediately connected to the individual. If you have lived life as it was intended by God, then at the end of your allotted time you can be satisfied as the patriarchs were, and you can peacefully die and rest in eternity.
There is no idea whatsoever of a general afterlife and certainly no notion of any "resurrection". In Jewish thought, that came only much later under Christian influence; Moses Maimonides added it only in medieval times as the last item to the "13 Jewish Articles of Faith".
I thought there was a belief in resurrection in the later books of the Hebrew Bible, like Daniel 12:2.
The old Israelite notion of the underworld (she'ol and so on) did imply an afterlife of sorts but not in a positively retributive way (as either reward or punishment). Being gathered with his folks is a peaceful perspective at the end of a long life (e.g. Genesis) as is lying in she'ol to the afflicted (e.g. Job); to others it is a humiliation (e.g. Isaiah 14).
The positive notion of a retributive afterlife (as happiness or affliction) only emerges at the extreme end of the OT texts, with the adoption of the Persian concept of resurrection in Daniel, but from an eschatological (end-time) perspective. From then on (in so-called "intertestamental" literature) it develops into a diversified set of beliefs about the "intermediate state" (blessing and/or torment from the time of death to the time of resurrection). This notion may eventually supersede or even dispense with that of final resurrection in the Hellenistic context where the immortality of soul is perceived as self-sufficient. Of course many older texts of the Hebrew "Bible" will henceforth be re-read from this perspective, and ideas of positive reward or punishment in the afterlife will be "found" in the Psalms for instance.
In line with intertestamental beliefs, many NT texts refer to a (present or future) location of the OT faithful in heaven or "paradise" (e.g. Matthew 8:11//; Luke 16:22ff; 20:38; Hebrews 11:16). And many more depict Gehenna as a "place" of (present or future) torment (Matthew 5:22,29f; 10:28 etc.).
Thanks everyone! I have to admit I felt a bit stupid when I heard the question, because my first reaction was to say "on earth"...but then I realized that was based soley on my JW education and not on anything I read in the Bible. I thought of Enoch and Elijah being "taken" away, but that didn't mesh with the rest of the OT accounts of death.
Slimboy, I am with you...I thought there was a resurrection hope as well in the OT, but was that back to the earth or heaven?
Unclebruce, I am with you on what the WT teaches, ie: earth, BethSarim, etc...but I am sure my JW relative was trying to show they are right about this and everyone else is wrong and I couldn't think of the way to refute him. I hate it when that happens!!
Morgana and Narkissos...those are good points and make sense. Thanks!
I thought there was a resurrection hope as well in the OT, but was that back to the earth or heaven?
If we retain only Daniel for actual belief in resurrection (not just playing with the idea as in Isaiah 26:19; Ezekiel 37, or actually against it as in Job 14), the perspective is not local (either heaven or earth) but temporal: "At that time" (12:1, cf. "the time of the end," v. 4,9; "the end of days" v. 13). However, it may be worth noting that the teaching of resurrection (v. 2) is immediately followed by a heavenlycomparison (" Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.") At the stage of this text it is only a comparison, but it may have contributed to later conceptions of post mortem blessedness as "heavenly" (along with other OT features like God "taking" Henoch or Elijah).
In more elaborate eschatologies like that of Revelation 20 the resurrection actually occurs in a sort of "nowhere" between two worlds as it were: the old "heavens and earth" disappear before resurrection begins and only after judgement ends does a new set of "heaven and earth" appear (20:15; 21:1).
