Watchtower Propaganda

by JosephAlward 78 Replies latest jw friends

Trevor Scott

Joseph,
The very act of entering this relationship constituted support for the principles of the UN Charter. This is an established fact seen in information from Hoeffel and other UN sources.
Your argument is analogous to a man pulling out a gun in a bank and stuffing an empty sack in front of the bank teller. If she stuffs it full of money and he leaves the bank, tell me, did he rob the bank or not? He never actually said the words. Is he guilty of robbing the bank? Of course. He is guilty because of his actions, not his words. In the same way, the WTS is "guilty" of supporting the UN. They entered a relationship whereby it was well understood that they would support the UN, and they lived up to the act of supporting the UN as has already been shown.
You still have not answered my questions. I challenged your assertion that "these articles are not propaganda for the UN; they're propaganda for the Watchtower". I asked how it is that advertising UN International years constitutes Watchtower propaganda as opposed to UN propaganda:
: http://www.geocities.com/wts_lies/observances.htm
Also, if the wts was not printing UN propaganda, why then does one of their articles appear on the UN website as a "commemoration of the signing of the UDHR and the role of Eleanor Roosevelt"?
: http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/materials/articles.htm
Or do you concede that the wts was printing at least some UN propaganda? Of course, this is an act of support, agreed?
It sounds like you agree that at least the United Nations expected the wts to live up to their commitment to support the UN. So why then, if the wts was not supporting the UN as you posit, did the UN not terminate the wts' association? It would appear the UN found the level of support acceptable.
I'd appreciate you answering my questions. Did the wts print some UN propaganda in their magazines? (Follow the links above.)
TS,
Did the Watchtower Society "support" the scarlet beast of Revelation?
: http://www.geocities.com/watchtowersociety/beast.htm
JosephAlward

Trevor,
The article at * http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Watchtower_Propaganda.htm
explains why I think the articles I present are Watchtower propaganda; those who don't understand Watchtower theology would clearly think that these articles are pro-UN. However, I think in the examples I presented the intent of the writer was to slam the UN and promote the Watchtower. This was done by explaining that good-hearted people, sincere in their beliefs, still were--and are--unable to make a real difference; only through Jehovah and his coming Kingdom government will that happen.
You asked about the UN website, and whether the listing of the Roosevelt article there means that the Watchtower knew it was writing propaganda for the UN. My answer has been (I think I've answered this before) that this article was propaganda for the Watchtower as far as the Watchtower was concerned, but was obviously propaganda for the UN as far as the UN was concerned. The articles were not written to help the UN; the fact that they did help the UN is not relevant, I believe. What matters is that the Watchtower thinks it was helped more.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
JosephAlward

I thought you got most of your stuff at Zev's site and Randy's site, so I don't know how you missed this
I'll look at these later this evening, but first I would like to know what it is I should be looking for on those web pages; you didn't say. Please give me some guidance.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
Trevor Scott

Joseph,
I asked you about two specific articles - advertising UN International Years - which I provided a link to. Here is the link for a third time:
: http://www.geocities.com/wts_lies/observances.htm
These articles are very brief. Please read them. Now please explain to me how these constitute "Watchtower propaganda". Or do you concede that these two articles are instead UN propaganda?
Regarding the commemorative article on the UN website, you said:
...this article was propaganda for the Watchtower as far as the Watchtower was concerned, but was obviously propaganda for the UN as far as the UN was concerned. The articles were not written to help the UN; the fact that they did help the UN is not relevant, I believe. What matters is that the Watchtower thinks it was helped more.
We all know the wts was officially registered with the UN, with the expressed expectation that they print articles supporting the UN. So now that you see articles printed by the wts that in your own words do support the UN ("obviously propaganda for the UN"), you say it's not relevant.
Boy, you'd make a good dub.
Let's see, they were expected to print articles supportive of the UN. They did print articles supportive of the UN. Well that's obviously not relevant!
A very lame argument indeed.
You don't want to speak to the two articles advertising UN International Years because you know they in no way constitute "Watchtower propaganda". They are propaganda for the UN pure and simple. Your argument has fallen flat on its face. I think the least you could do is fess up and stop wasting everyone's time.
TS,
Did the Watchtower Society "support" the scarlet beast of Revelation?
: http://www.geocities.com/watchtowersociety/beast.htm
hawkaw

Joe
It's the official WTS policy on political Neutrality and the United Nations.
I thought that is what I said up above - your reading skills are lacking today my man?
Trevor - great work. Just out of curosity what does page 4 of the 2001 article and/or the rest of the article say? (Did you post it? Sorry to be a pain but I am having a brain melt down)
hawk
OUTLAW

Joseph Alward dosen`t get it because he dosen`t want to get it.He wants to be right.He thinks he can come on this board and tell us how WBTS works,what a joke.We have people on this board who have spent a life time there and this guy wants to give lessons.About what?Things he knows nothing about,and never will.This will be the last post I waste on this thread...OUTLAW
Trevor Scott

Hawk:
Sorry bud, but I was sent the page 5 scan. Do not have page 4. I could probably get it though, as it does look to be additional pro-UN work.
Outlaw:
Well said.
TS,
Did the Watchtower Society "support" the scarlet beast of Revelation?
: http://www.geocities.com/watchtowersociety/beast.htm
JosephAlward

Trevor,
You provided an incomplete quote from me to support your case. You wrote,
So now that you see articles printed by the wts that in your own words do support the UN ("obviously propaganda for the UN"), you say it's not relevant.

What I wrote was that the "article was obviouslypropaganda as far as the UN was concerned. See below.
You asked about the UN website, and whether the listing of the Roosevelt article there means that the Watchtower knew it was writing propaganda for the UN. My answer has been (I think I've answered this before) that this article was propaganda for the Watchtower as far as the Watchtower was concerned, but was obviously propaganda for the UN as far as the UN was concerned. The articles were not written to help the UN; the fact that they did help the UN is not relevant, I believe. What matters is that the Watchtower thinks it was helped more.
I stand by my earlier statement; the articles were NOT written to help the UN. Nobody thinks that was the intent of the Watchtower was to help the UN; its intent was to diminish it relative to Jehovah by showing that the UN is failing in its central mission to bring peace and happiness to the world. The UN was helped only in the sense that its missions were described and thereby made known to the Awake! readership, but all who would be reading those articles would either already know that the articles were criticisms, or would be told by the doorknockers that that's what they were. Thus, the help that the UN received pales in comparision to the harm done to it in the eyes of the typical Awake! reader. Thus, the article would be seen as help in UN headquarters, but in the kingdom halls everyone would know the opposite was true.
I'll analyze the articles you mentioned and comment on them this evening.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
Trevor Scott

Hawk:
Just realized I was also sent pages 6 and 7 of the 2001 Awake on volunteering. You can check them out here:
: http://www.geocities.com/wts_lies/awake072201.htm
Joseph:
I'm questioning even bothering to continue this discussion. My only point in doing so thus far is to show those reading your posts that you are totally out in left field on this one.
You said: "What I wrote was that the "article was obviouslypropaganda as far as the UN was concerned."
Man, you really just don't get it. Of course it was UN propaganda as far as the UN was concerned. That's kinda the point. Since it was the UN that the wts agreed to support, it would have to be UN propaganda "as far as the UN was concerned." Otherwise they wouldn't really be showing support to the UN, now would they?
The UN goes so far as to require samples of the "support work" being done by its NGOs, to ensure their support is in fact "propaganda as far as the UN [is] concerned".
It seems your argument boils down to "the wts lied to the UN". Guess what? We all know that. But this does not change the fact that the wts did lend support to the UN, by advertising UN activities, promoting international years, etc, etc. They provided UN propaganda as deemed such by the UN itself.
It's the beast who calls the shots. The whore just lends support.
TS,
Did the Watchtower Society "support" the scarlet beast of Revelation?
: http://www.geocities.com/watchtowersociety/beast.htm
Satanus

Joe
In response to some of your questions: the wt has in the past encouraged jws to be law abiding, paying taxes and cooperating w govts generally, except for issues such as flag saluting, singing the national anthems, or govt limitations of their proselytising work or meetings. However, in the past, the un or league of nations has not been accepted by the wt as just another govt body. It has cultivated among jws a hatred/loathing for them. It is difficult to get accross to you the complete wt picture re the un. And so, I have cut articles or chapters expressing wt feelings on this from wt material dating from 1963-1988 and pasted them together to make one long essay. It is material like this that we, in the past, accepted as coming from god. Remember that this is only SOME of the wt anti-un propaganda that we had previously eagerly absorbed.
As the essay is fairly long, i hesitate to post it all here, unless i check w simon first. It's 221 kb. I'm not going to post only parts of it, because small appropriate quotes are already available on sites that have been referred to you. If you would be interested, i could email it to you in the format of your choice.
SS

Watchtower Propaganda

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