Uh huh, you just want to know if we'd obey you, Cal.
"But it's not always that clear." <.........huge understatement.
Is OBEDIENCE a dirty word to you?
by caliber 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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caliber
... LOL
/this is an example of negative motivation
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FlyingHighNow
I love Stewie/Babie Hillary. Caliber, you take care of yourself, now. (Will wait patiently to see if Caliber obeys.)
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White Dove
Yes, it's a dirty word to me unless it means to obey the law, in which case I am more than willing to do. The law is the only one besides me that bosses me. I would obey my boss according to the hiring agreement, of course, but family and friends? Pluck off!
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FlyingHighNow
Caliber, you want what we should start calling you, my Lord, Sarah style?
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WTWizard
Unless there is a good natural reason to obey, it is not the best thing to do. If you blindly obey someone, they could well be setting you up for stagnation and to exploit you. This is common in governments as well as religions, and Jesus did not teach blind obedience to either.
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wobble
When I visit my friend Miss Whiplash I love to obey.
Wobble
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Finally-Free
No, I think everyone should be obedient to me.
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AllTimeJeff
Just echoing some concepts here others have said and alluded to....
Obedience is either forced due to superior strength, wealth or resources, or earned, thus making it voluntary obedience.
The dichotomy when looking at obedience through the JW lens is that its another example of their double speak. They brag about a JW's obedience being "voluntary" because we love Jehovah, the brotherhood. Oh yeah, I forgot, the FD Slave/Governing Body. The like getting stroked. Hey, no one put a gun to your head to get baptized. (thats what they say, I know that isn't true)
On this one level, I will liken JW's with all cults, including the super dangerous ones like Jim Jones bunch that went to Guyana. They were sold a false bill of goods, and yes, they went voluntarily, because they were lied to. Could they leave? No. It isn't in a cults nature to allow for voluntary disagreements and dissent. You can join voluntarily, but once you give them your bank account number, you can't close the account.
(please, I am not trying to turn this thread into a JW discussion on cultism and comparing the Borg to other cults, just making a point. )
The fact is, most religions allow you to voluntarily enter and exit. To that end, obedience is less a problem. However, JW's are only voluntarily allowed to enter without censure. To voluntarily leave puts you in line for severe sanctions, especially shunning. That is the mark of a cult.
In addition, baptism, (especially for minors who do not understand the JW methodology of control,) is never put to the "here is our controversial prophecy list" test. ALL converts without exception are told only the basics of paradise, preaching, Armageddon, and you can live forever. Thats it. Sign here on the dotted line! No mention of the problems. "Everything is great!"
Afterward, you learn and observe the "weird stuff", the "prophecies" masquerading as "solid food", the weird worship of certain men in the JW community (i.e. the Governing Body). The mental illness and depression of many. The absolute exhaustion of those trying to do all the GB demands. The pressure to do more and "volunteer" your life away for the goals of the Governing Body.
Ever wonder why the GB wants new converts baptized quickly? For minors to be baptized before they really can understand ALL that is involved?
Ever wonder why those that hang around as bible studies for years never get baptized? They like some JW's but think the whole thing is too weird. And they are right!
Yeah, they mention disfellowshipping, but about an hour total is spent on explaining this. It is not an understood concept for most new ones. It becomes more of a reality when you join, but they always tell you (I always said as an elder) "If you love Jehovah and you are obedient, you won't ever have to worry about disfellowshipping. (unless you voice disagreement with the GB's teachings... oops, did I forget to mention that?)
Once you are baptized, you are obligated to be obedient under pain of disfellowshipping and shunning. If your entire family is "in", obedience to the Governing Body is the only way to maintain familial relations. Welcome to forced obedience, whether the GB calls it that or not.
The thing that makes obedience a dirty word to most ex JW's in my opinion is that those who want it or need it have their own agenda. Your needs are almost always secondary.
A certain amount of obedience is required in all governments of the world. No doubt. Anarchy is no obedience to any standard. Civilization needs law.
Democracy is the closest that man has come to respecting the rights of others so that we can be obedient to our conscience, to the extent that it does not harm or infringe on the rights of others to pursue a happy life. (it took a few hundred years for some groups in the USA to get those rights; looks like the gay community can't fully behave according to the dictates of their conscience yet, as they must be obedient to the laws enforced upon them by those who disapprove of homosexuality. Unfortunate...)
Beyond what is absolutely needed, obedience implies the existence of an agenda by those demanding or asking for your obedience. At times, it is advantageous. However, it is also important to not be naive and pay attention to what is given up in exchange for your obedience. A lesson well learned by those who had to submit to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses.
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White Dove
The word "obedience" ruffles my feathers. I hate that word. I link that word with "obedience to divine direction."
"Obey" I link to "Obey the law." That one is fine.