Mere Christianity: logical reasoning

by Rex B13 25 Replies latest jw friends

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Mere Christianity: excerpt

    CHAPTER ONE
    THE LAW OF HUMAN NATURE
    Every one has heard people quarrelling. Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but however it sounds, I believe we can learn something very important from listening to the kind of things they say. They say things like this: 'How'd you like it if anyone did the same to you?' -- 'That's my seat, I was there first' -- 'Leave him alone, he isn't doing you any harm' -- 'Why should you shove in first?' -- 'Give me a bit of your orange, I gave you a bit of mine' -- 'Come on, you promised.' People say things like that every day, educated people as well as uneducated, and children as well as grown-ups.
    Now what interests me about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man's behaviour does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behaviour which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: 'To hell with your standard.' Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there is some special excuse. He pretends there is some special reason in this particular case why the person who took the seat first should not keep it, or that things were quite different when he was given the bit of orange, or that something has turned up which lets him off keeping his promise. It looks, in fact, very much as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behaviour or morality or whatever you like to call it, about which they really agreed. And they have. If they had not, they might, of course, fight like animals, but they could not quarrel in the human sense of the word. Quarrelling means trying to show that the other man is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are; just as there would be no sense in saying that a footballer had committed a foul unless there was some agreement about the rules of football.
    Now this Law or Rule about Right and Wrong used to be called the Law of Nature. Nowadays, when we talk of the 'laws of nature' we usually mean things like gravitation, or heredity, or the laws of chemistry. But when the older thinkers called the Law of Right and Wrong 'the Law of Nature', they really meant the Law of Human Nature. The idea was that, just as all bodies are governed by the law of gravitation, and organisms by biological laws, so the creature called man also had his law-with this great difference, that a body could not choose whether it obeyed the law of gravitation or not, but a man could choose either to obey the Law of Human Nature or to disobey it.
    We may put this in another way. Each man is at every moment subjected to several different sets of law but there is only one of these which he is free to disobey. As a body, he is subjected to gravitation and cannot disobey it; if you leave him unsupported in mid-air, he has no more choice about falling than a stone has. As an organism, he is subjected to various biological laws which he cannot disobey any more than an animal can. That is, he cannot disobey those laws which he shares with other things; but the law which is peculiar to his human nature, the law he does not share with animals or vegetables or inorganic things, is the one he can disobey if he chooses.
    This law was called the Law of Nature because people thought that every one knew it by nature and did not need to be taught it. They did not mean, of course, that you might not find an odd individual here and there who did not know it, just as you find a few people who are colour-blind or have no ear for a tune. But taking the race as a whole, they thought that the human idea of decent behaviour was obvious to every one. And I believe they were right. If they were not, then all the things we said about the war were nonsense. What was the sense in saying the enemy were in the wrong unless Right is a real thing which the Nazis at bottom knew as well as we did and ought to have practised? If they had had no notion of what we mean by right, then, though we might still have had to fight them, we could no more have blamed them for that than for the colour of their hair.
    I know that some people say the idea of a Law of Nature or decent behaviour known to all men is unsound, because different civilisations and different ages have had quite different moralities.
    But this is not true. There have been differences between their moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks and Romans, what will really strike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own. Some of the evidence for this I have put together in the appendix of another book called The Abolition of Man; but for our present purpose I need only ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a country where two and two made five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to-whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or every one. But they have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked.

  • rem
    rem

    C. S. Lewis is a respected writer of children's stories and Christian apologetics, but I'm afraid that his logic isn't always sound, but is based on anecdotes, selective memory of history, and special pleading.

    First of all, how can anyone claim that a person can disobey the law of human nature (assuming such a law does in fact exist)? By definition, a human could never disobey this law because anything a person does is following his human nature. There is no 'unnatural' act when it comes to humans. Is riding a bike 'unnatural'? Is lying 'unnatural'? Human nature includes these and all other things that humans do.

    Also, ther ARE large differences in how other cultures now and in history have treated their fellow human beings. Morality and ethics are relative. Today we (most, not all in modern society) think Slavery is barbaric, mistreatment of women primitive, and killing of unwanted infants (already born) as unthinkable. Even today people have vastly different views on abortion, capital punishment, sex before marriage, extramarital sex, homosexuality, stealing, murder, war, etc. These issues are not black and white. There is no one standard that all human beings can agree on.

    C. S. Lewis was writing in his own little world. He wasn't taking into account how things really happen today and in history.

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Hi Rem,

    >Also, ther ARE large differences in how other cultures now and in history have treated their fellow human beings. Morality and ethics are relative. Today we (most, not all in modern society) think Slavery is barbaric, mistreatment of women primitive, and killing of unwanted infants (already born) as unthinkable.

    So, killing of the most defenseless is OK? The woman's comfort is more important than a life? If the little body is at the canal we can kill it but if it emerges we can't (oops, partial birth abortions are ok now)? 'Slavery' built the Roman Empire and it was often like employment is today. The 'terrible' Biblical standard was a genuine improvement in women's rights over the previous age.

    >Even today people have vastly different views on abortion, capital punishment, sex before marriage, extramarital sex, homosexuality, stealing, murder, war, etc. These issues are not black and white. There is no one standard that all human beings can agree on.

    There is one standard regarding truth inherent in scripture. By your own viewpoint then one could justify any act with 'moral relativism'; adults molesting children (where is the cut off date for this, 16, 14, 12 or even 10?); ritual sacrifice; killing all undesirables (like Jews, or do you think the germans and arabs don't really know any better?); blacks killing whites who take a wrong turn into the wrong neighborhood, etc!
    YOU who go by this philosophy have not one leg to stand on. You can't really condemn any act.

    >C. S. Lewis was writing in his own little world. He wasn't taking into account how things really happen today and in history.

    Oh come on! LOL The man was a intellectual from the early days of WW2 and faced more of the 'real world' than any of us here. Have you ever read the book (or any of his books) or do you just ignore anything spiritual in your 'own little world'.
    What a weak statement.
    Rex

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked.

    LOFL. A girlfriend bought me a copy of "Mere Christianity" at a used bookstore a while back. I've intended to read it, but reading this, I think I've read enough. Just another person putting their agenda before their brain.

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    That's a very interesting excerpt. I didn't know Lewis fell for that reasoning. In fact, the idea of certain fairly universal taboos is very easy to explain without God being in the picture. In the earliest days of humanity, it became obvious which actions helped the individual and the group, and which actions caused harm to the individual or the group. Those actions that caused harm became taboo to one degree or another. Now, many thousands of years later, our collective experience as humans has led to certain moral standards that are mostly followed by all.

    No God in the picture, no God needed in that picture. God may be one explanation for this developement, but He is hardly the only possible explanation, and thus Lewis' logic breaks down.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    REX13,

    4 thumbs up my man.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    Thanks D,
    Isn't it amazing how our rank amateurs pretend to contend with Lewis? Old sixty-nine even dismisses it before he reads it, Oh well, eating crow is not for some people. Why try to keep 'saving face' when you've lost your a..?
    Rex

  • Rex B13
    Rex B13

    >In the earliest days of humanity, it became obvious which actions helped the individual and the group, and which actions caused harm to the individual or the group. Those actions that caused harm became taboo to one degree or another. Now, many thousands of years later, our collective experience as humans has led to certain moral standards that are mostly followed by all.

    What? That explains the inborn conscience present in most humans?
    A supposition that is only used to deny the very conscience that checks the actions of fallen and depraved mankind. In evolutionary theory, it calls for survival of the fittest: the one who can kick the most butt or outhink that one is the ruler of the tribe. If, evolution was true, that is.
    If man is nothing more than a 'bright animal', then there is absolutely no reason for man to have developed beyond the hunter-gatherer stage and the 'rule of the jungle' would be in force now.
    Rex

  • Skeptic
    Skeptic

    Hi, Rex,

    So, killing of the most defenseless is OK? The woman's comfort is more important than a life? If the little body is at the canal we can kill it but if it emerges we can't (oops, partial birth abortions are ok now)?
    Read Rem's statement again. He was not commenting on the morality of abortion. He merely commented that many people find abortion acceptable. Whether one personally agrees or disagrees with abortion, Rem's statement in itself, is accurate.

    'Slavery' built the Roman Empire and it was often like employment is today. The 'terrible' Biblical standard was a genuine improvement in women's rights over the previous age.
    First, I would like to commend you for not avoiding the fact that the Bible finds slavery acceptable. That shows a great deal of integrity. Many Christians just ignore the issue. I remember the Awake! having its feature articles on slavery and not once did they show what the Bible says on it. Although I was a devote JW at the time, it made me angry that the WTS would be so dishonest.

    'Slavery' built the Roman Empire...
    Slavery has built many a civilization; that does not make it moral.

    ...and it [slavery] was often like employment is today.
    The following is from the Cahtholic Encyclopedia on the book of Philemon. The link is http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11797b.htm The italics are mine.

    Onesimus, most likely only one of many slaves of Philemon, fled away and, apparently before his flight, defrauded his master, and ran away to Rome, finding his way to the hired lodging where Paul was suffered to dwell by himself and to receive all that came to him (Acts, xxviii, 16, 30). ..Onesimus, as a Christian, was obliged to make restitution. According to the law, the master of a runaway slave might treat him exactly as he pleased. When retaken, the slave was usually branded on the forehead, maimed, or forced to fight with wild beasts.
    Does that sound like Roman slavery was like employment? For simply running away, a slave's master could do as he pleased with the slave. This usually meant he was branded on the forehead, maimed, or forced to fight with wild beasts. What employer could brand or maim an employee, or make the employee fight wild beats? When I leave an employer, the worst that happens is a bad employment reference or maybe I am cheated out of a paycheck. I don't have to fear being maimed.

    Slavery is slavery and notemployment.

    Poor, Onesimus, not only did he run away, he defrauded his master. Let's hope that the master listened to Paul and was kind to Onesimus. Unfortunately, we will never know.

    The 'terrible' Biblical standard was a genuine improvement in women's rights over the previous age.
    But it still is a terrible standard. The other standards (except for the Mosiac Law) are men's standards. The Bible's standards are supposed to be written by God. Surely, He could have done better.

    Richard

  • Seeker
    Seeker
    What? That explains the inborn conscience present in most humans?

    No, it explains the nature of cause-and-effect. Early humans noticed some actions caused problems, and they learned to avoid those actions. Simple observation would do it, and that is a valid possible explanation for its development.

    A supposition that is only used to deny the very conscience that checks the actions of fallen and depraved mankind. In evolutionary theory, it calls for survival of the fittest: the one who can kick the most butt or outhink that one is the ruler of the tribe. If, evolution was true, that is.
    If man is nothing more than a 'bright animal', then there is absolutely no reason for man to have developed beyond the hunter-gatherer stage and the 'rule of the jungle' would be in force now.
    No, evolution is not that simple. There is the community effect, whereby altruism has its place, and the sacrifice of the individual that helps the whole becomes an acceptable evolutionary choice for perpetuating the species.

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