JWs: 144,000 in Revelation is not ALWAYS a literal number

by Olin Moyles Ghost 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Olin Moyles Ghost
    Olin Moyles Ghost

    I recently realized something interesting about JW theology and thought I'd share it with the rest of the class: As most of us know, a distictive facet of Watchtower/JW theology is the concept that the 144,000 in Revelation chapters 7 and 14 is a literal number. Thus, the Witnesses believe that exactly 144,000 humans will be resurrected to heaven to rule with Jesus Christ, while the rest of the Witnesses will populate a restored paradise earth. They also teach that the 24 elders in Revelation represent the 144,000 kings and priests in heaven. So, when Rev. 14:3 depicts the 144,000 singing a song in front of the 24 elders, this seems a bit strange. How can they sing in front of themselves? It doesn't make a lot of sense. So, I looked it up in the "Revelation Climax" book. Page 201, paragraph 10 states the following:

    "How can the 144,000 sing “before” the elders, since the 24 elders are the 144,000 in their glorious heavenly position? Early in the Lord’s day, those “dead in union with Christ” were resurrected as spirit creatures. Thus, faithful anointed Christians who have conquered are now in heaven, symbolically fulfilling functions comparable to those of 24 divisions of priestly elders. They are included in the vision of Jehovah’s heavenly organization. (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16; 1 Chronicles 24:1-18; Revelation 4:4; 6:11) The remnant of the 144,000 still on earth are therefore singing the new song before, or in the sight of, their resurrected brothers in heaven."

    Notice the last sentence. Yes, there are not literally 144,000 singing the new song in Rev. 14:3. Rather, it's the REMNANT of the 144,000 on earth during the Lord's day. So, today that's between 9,000 and 10,000 "singers." Therefore, the 144,000 in Rev. 14:3 is not a literal number. It's figurative.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Cool. Thanks.

  • NewYork44M
    NewYork44M

    Doesn't this intrepretation sound a lot like talking to the dead - or singing to the dead?

    I thaught that was a bad thing?

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    Interesting and well spotted, although its really only showing that the Society sometimes believes the entire 144k (still literal) is represented or portrayed in scripture by the remnant on earth (as a sub-set of the still literal number). There are numerous instances where the Society does this - basically twisting what a scripture is prima facie saying to fit whatever has happened in the organisation on earth during the last days. But this comment in the Rev Climax book (which is mostly garbage) isn't really suggesting the Society allows for a non-literal interpretation of the actual number who go to heaven per se.

  • Jeremy C
    Jeremy C

    Thank you ghost.

    There are certainly many holes in the Watchtower's interpretation of the 144,000. It is quite arbitrary and capricious. The Watchtower plays fast and loose with the facts and trips over themselves in an attempt to maintain this traditional teaching.

    But, what would we expect from a religion that will perform intellectual somersaults in trying to explain why the Garden of Eden account was a literal historical event? Or Jonah and the fish? Or the global flood? Their intellectual dishonesty permeates every aspect of their rationalizations as well as just about very page of the silly books they print.

  • kurtbethel
    kurtbethel

    Well the plot thickens.

    The Revelation Climax book goes on to explain that the 144,000 singing on Mount Zion happened in 1919, figuratively of course. But then it could not literally be the 144,000 since in 1919 some were dead, while others were still alive on Earth and yet others were not born yet, at least according to current light on the matter. So since the 144,000 were not literally there on Mount Zion in 1919, then the literal number is really figurative. It is unclear whether it stays figurative or if the figurative number of them do an encore performance in the future when the rest of them can make the scene in order to make it a literal gathering on Mount Zion, which seems to be the point of that passage in the first place. If that is the case, it leaves one wondering what the 1919 gathering was all about, perhaps a dress rehearsal so they have a perfect performance at the future engagement when they are all literally there.

    Let this be a cautionary tale for someone who is considering letting the Watchtower lead them down the Bible study trail.

  • oompa
    oompa
    kurtbethel: It is unclear whether it stays figurative or if the figurative number of them do an encore performance

    I can just see myself at the concert holding my bic lighter in the air..........

    olin ghostly...this is what some here call a GREAT CATCH...so i will too....and i guess i could google it but wtf does your name here mean?............oompa

    as is who is olin moyles?..........and you are his ghost?.....ok..i will google it anyway

  • oompa
    oompa

    Olin R. Moyle

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    Olin R. Moyle was legal counsel for the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society from 1935 to 1939, on staff at the headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses in Brooklyn, New York, also known as Bethel. He is best known for suing the Watch Tower Society for libel, stemming from an article in the October 15, 1939 issue of the society's publication, The Watchtower magazine.

    CRAP...i did it...i googled it..ROFLMAO!!!...if you told me this before i apologize for my crappy memory....just too funny.....oompa

  • OBVES
    OBVES

    You have touched on the very interesting mind-boggling topic . Your solution is doubtful and there are better explanations to that .Note that the Watchtower may seem to be very smart at explaining some views and your explanation is seems to be worse .

    You read about Melchizedek in the Bible ? Read Hebrews 7.

    He was an anthropomorphic being ! Check a dictionary on that .He was not a real human being though he looked like he was .

    To reconcile the best way these 24 elders from Revelation 5.8-10 with Revelation 14.1-5 and considering various other aspects who 144000 people might be is to see these elders as 24 anthropomorphic beings representing future 144000 servants of God Yahweh and Jesus Christ.

    The order is GOD YAHWEH - God Jesus Christ - 144000 menservants ( men ) as the one world government .

    144000 are the best greatest disciples of Jesus .

    You should check my post history here how I view 144000 servants . But what is more important don't dwell to much on the past how the Bible was understood long time ago it is now important as never to learn how the Bible is understood nowadays as I am proving from my posts we must be living in the very endtime as Daniel 12.4,9 is clearly being fulfilled right before our eyes.

    Go to alt.religion.jehovahs-witn ( a google group ) or Jehovah's Witness Online forum and find a subforum
    "Conspiracy Theory,End of Times Predictions , Jesus 2.0 " and learn how we can know we live in the endtime era by studying my posts .On google when you find my post - by OBVES - click on "more options " and then on " find messages by this author " .

    God's name hides 2772 .... ( you can find out how I came to that ) .When looking from the Center of God's Throne we can see: 72 and 72 . 72+72 = 144.

    24 will look like 42 and 24 . 24 + 42 = 66 .This number 66 represents God's Word - the Bible as it should have 66 books .

    Jesus is God's Word and his bride 144000 servants as his body are can also be identified as God's Word .

    24x72 = 1728 . There is a date 1728 BC which identifies with Jacob - Israel . Also note my dates : 106 AD ,150 AD and 1878 AD.

    150 AD - when true christianity ended + 1728 years = 1878 AD - the dawn for the revival of the true christianity by the International Bible Students.

    96 AD - The Book of Revelation given + 10 years for "10 days " as per Revelation 2.10 = 106 AD.

    106 AD + 1772 years , as taken from 2772 years - 1000 years, = 1878 AD.

    1728 years + 1772 years = 3500 years which is "3.5 times "; each day as 1000 years.

    Note : 1513 BC - Israel freed by God Yahweh + 3500 years = 1988 AD ; which is in the middle of the period 1984 AD - 1991 AD.

    29 AD - Jesus began his 3.5-year mission - 33 AD - Jesus died on the Cross - 36 AD = 1984 AD - 1988 AD - 1991 AD.

  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    Good one dude, you've awakened "Obves".......nice going!

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