Which "Michael" in Daniel? Really need a little help here

by kzjw 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles
    My wife gives Daniel 10:13, 21 and 12:1 as proof that Michael is the post-ressurected Jesus. Are those versus even referring to Michael the Archangel or some other Michael? If so, where is the proof that it refers to him as Jesus?

    Really! so how does she explain this:

    Daniel 10:5 I also proceeded to raise my eyes and see, and here was a certain man clothed in linen, with his hips girded with gold of U´phaz. 6 And his body was like chrys´o·lite, and his face like the appearance of lightning, and his eyes like fiery torches, and his arms and the place of his feet were like the sight of burnished copper, and the sound of his words was like the sound of a crowd. ( Angel or the Lord Jesus?)7 And I saw, I Daniel by myself, the appearance (SOUNDS DIFFERENT THAN ARCHANGELS); but as for the men that happened to be with me, they did not see the appearance. However, there was a great trembling that fell upon them, so that they went running away in hiding themselves.

    8 And I—I was left remaining by myself, so that I saw this great appearance. And there was left remaining in me no power, and my own dignity became changed upon me to ruination, and I retained no power. 9 And I began hearing the sound of his words; and while I was hearing the sound of his words, ( Earlier, Daniel knew Gabriel’s words )I myself also happened to be fast asleep upon my face, with my face to the earth. 10 And, look! there was a hand that touched me, and it gradually stirred me up to [get] upon my knees and the palms of my hands. (Gabriel he knows him and that was that hand that touched him! And he would not be shocked over Gabriel appearance)11 And he proceeded to say to me:

    “O Daniel, you very desirable man, have understanding in the words that I am speaking to you, and stand up where you were standing, for now I have been sent to you.”

    (great appearance)And when he spoke with me this word, I did stand up, shivering.

    12 And he went on to say to me: “Do not be afraid, O Daniel, for from the first day that you gave your heart to understanding and humbling yourself before your God your words have been heard, and I myself have come because of your words. 1(other than Gabriel)3 But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Mi´cha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia. 14 And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come].”

    Daniel 10:16 And, look! one similar (GABRIEL)to the likeness of the sons of mankind was touching my lips, and I began to open my mouth and speak and say to the one who was standing in front of me: ( THE GREAT APPEARANCE! STANDING IN FRONT COULD BE Lord Jesus)“O my lord, because of the appearance my convulsions were turned within me, and I did not retain any power. 17 So how was the servant of this my lord able to speak with this my lord? And as for me, up to now there kept standing in me no power, and no breath at all was left remaining in me.”

    18 And the one like the appearance of an earthling man proceeded to touch me again and strengthen me.(Gabriel) 19 Then he said: “Do not be afraid, O very desirable man. May you have peace. Be strong, yes, be strong.” And as soon as he spoke with me I exerted my strength and finally said: Let my lord speak, because you have strengthened me.” (Daniels getting use to Gabriel and want to hear the Lord speak)"20 So he went on to say: (The Lord)

    “Do you really know why I have come to you? And now I shall go back to fight with the prince of Persia. When I am going forth, look! also the prince of Greece is coming. (great

    appearance, front of him, Lord)21 However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Mi´cha·el, the prince of YOU people. (Michael is not the lord who is speaking)

    Daniel 12:And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”

    5 And I saw, I Daniel, and, look! there were two others standing, one on the bank here of the stream and the other on the bank there of the stream. 6 Then one said to the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream:

    different location(Two angels on each side of the stream one asked the above the stream)“How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?” 7 And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen,( Could be Jesus the Lord)who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”

    8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?”

    9 And he went on to say: (Lord) “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.

    11 “And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!

    13 “And as for you yourself, go toward the end; and you will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.”

    The Appearance could be Lord Jesus who was speaking and if so he was speaking about Michael, also Gabriel appeared in earlier vision who was touching Daniel. Just a thought!

    When dealing with the WTBTS they leave out almost the entire conversation and they focus only on end time events!

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    kzjw

    The only verse in the bible jws can try to use is:

    1Th 4:16

    For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    My response has always been, if this verse makes Jesus into Michael, it also make him into a trumpet

    Isaac

    correct..there is also a Raphael...and 5 others...

    Can you show me that in the bible?

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    From the book of Enoch, the book is quoted in Jude......

    XX. Name and Functions of the Seven Archangels.

    CHAPTER XX.
    1. And these are the names of the holy angels who watch. 2. Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is over the world and over Tartarus. 3. Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4. Raguel, one of the holy angels who †takes vengeance on† the world of the luminaries. 5. Michael, one of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind ??and?? over chaos. 6. Saraqâêl, one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit. 7. Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim. 8. Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d
    First there's Michael to open the pit and unleash the forces of the locusts with scorpion stings

    (Would this be in keeping with character and nature of Jesus? Did Jesus ever open the door to sic pitbulls on anyone? Did Jesus ever leave any written threats to future generation? Did he ever use terror in his teachings? Did Jesus ever hurt anyone with physical "punishment" for not meeting up to expectations? That's why I don't believe they are same)

    then Raphel who is supposed to blow the trumpet and announce Armageddon.....

    How are these creatures doing anything to actually benefit mankind?

    correct..there is also a Raphael...and 5 others...

    Are these arch angels good or bad?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    inseachoftruth

    From the book of Enoch, the book is quoted in Jude......

    Seems that's a speculation.

    Also, the book Enoch was not canonized till the 15th century by Rome

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles

    1Th 4:16
    For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    My response has always been, if this verse makes Jesus into Michael, it also make him into a trumpet

    I agree with you Deputy Dog! The voice does not make him Michael. It just like saying a singer has a voice of an angel. Does that mean the singer conveying the messages is an angel? NO!

    First there's Michael to open the pit and unleash the forces of the locusts with scorpion stings

    And… where did you find that information is it in the bible? If I am not mistaken Jesus the lamb opened up the scrolls and the angels perform their duties? Jesus had the right to opened the scrolls like a commander and chief and the faithfull angels did what they were told including Michael.

    The WTBTS is wrong and it does not hold up. That should be enough to scare anyone away from the Jehovah’s Witness or the SDAs, or any religion for that matter.

    Look even the best scholars can not say when the Jewish people applied meanings to names.

    What does that tell you about the meaning of Michael, “One Who Is Like God” It's was trumped up by the Jewish people; two different scriptures skipped every other word! Who _ _ _ Is_ _ _ _ _ _ like. another scripture _ _ _ _ God_ _ _ _The scriptures does not even apply to a future Jesus it was just random! Now that is not from God!

    So what are we as Christians to do! Apply a false meaning of Michael to prove this is Jesus? or study it out!

    Jewish people did not even believe Jesus was the Messiah so why not make up some garbage to Michael so the Christians would think Michael is the Messiah. It is garbage and a false DOCTRINE!

    There is too much evidence that goes against this doctrine. Stupid WTBTS did not think people would do their research!

  • abbagail
    abbagail

    A short Q for your wife re: this verse in Daniel quoted above:

    [...]
    "However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Mi´cha·el, the prince of YOU people."
    [...]

    Ask her WHO is "YOU PEOPLE"? ...YOU = DANIEL's PEOPLE = NATION OF ISRAEL.

    Michael is the prince/angel who will stand up on behalf of ISRAEL during the end times/tribulation.

    Show her that, it "might" help.

    ---------

    But being a JW, her likely reply would be, Israel doesn't matter anymore, we [JWs] are "spiritual" Israel, etc. etc.

    If she says that, ask one more short series of Q's: "At what point in the Bible did God's prophecies stop being LITERAL and become "spiritual"? Isn't JHVH the "same yesterday, today, and forever"? Doesn't JHVH "never change"? Weren't all the OT prophecies fulfilled literally? So when did prophecy become "spiritual" instead of "literal"?

    Then stop and just let that simmer for awhile.

    It might help... (or might not.)
    /ag

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d
    First there's Michael to open the pit and unleash the forces of the locusts with scorpion stings

    And… where did you find that information is it in the bible? If I am not mistaken Jesus the lamb opened up the scrolls and the angels perform their duties? Jesus had the right to opened the scrolls like a commander and chief and the faithfull angels did what they were told including Michael.

    I am not refering to the scrolls. I am referring to the pit.

    Supposedly Jesus had the keys, right? And this fifth angel (Rev. 9) comes with a key to open the pit.

    Isn't that why JWs believe that Jesus comes as Michael?

    Is there any other information to identify who the fifth angel is?

    If the 7 arch angels are the angels of revelation....is there any info to give corelation between angels number and name?

  • glenster
  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles
    Supposedly Jesus had the keys, right? And this fifth angel (Rev. 9) comes with a key to open the pit.

    Yes, that is why the WTBTS believes that Michael is Jesus! but I think Jesus was given higher authority than any archangel! Happy reading!

    Revelation 1:12

    12 And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me, and, having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed with a garment that reached down to the feet, and girded at the breasts with a golden girdle. 14 Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes as a fiery flame; 15 and his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace; and his voice was as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was as the sun when it shines in its power. 17 And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.

    And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des.

    NOTE: Yes ,Jesus had the keys more than one and could give those keys to anyone he wants! So it makes since that when he received the scrolls in chapter 5 that as scrolls were open, angels did what they asked ! Chapter 5 “Who is worthy to open the scroll and loose its seals?”12 saying with a loud voice: “The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.”

    After chapter 5 there are a lot of angels doing there thing some with trumpet and other stating the WOE!

    Revelation 11:

    Note: Revelation 12 is a third WOE! See scriptures! Now Revelation 12:7 no longer makes sense to group it with the sayings in Heavens! Does it make sense that Revelation 11:7 is Jesus in 10 Notice 7 is a seen with Michael 10 is sayings after Michael‘s war! So leave the saying out! Verse 10! And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! So the saying is explaining Jesus power which really goes with chapter 5! And Michael would not fight if it were not for the authority of his Christ! Below, I cut the scripture out so one can see the reading differently.

    Revelation 12

    7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.

    Note: JW just lump 10 as an explanation of who Michael is in 7 but it does not work with the woes of Angels, trumpets of Angels, and the Bowls poored out by angels 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

    Revelation 8:12

    12 And the fourth angel blew his trumpet. And a third of the sun was smitten and a third of the moon and a third of the stars, in order that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not have illumination for a third of it, and the night likewise.

    13 And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven say with a loud voice: “Woe, woe, woe to those dwelling on the earth because of the rest of the trumpet blasts of the three angels who are about to blow their trumpets!”

    NOTE:

    Revelation 9:1 Once again a star (angel) that had fallen The Key was given him! Could also mean Jesus in Chapter 5 gave a key to this star! and part of the opening of the seals! It was one key and not a group of keys like in verse 1. Not enough proof that this star is Jesus! But I do not think that Jesus had fallen like Michael kicked him out! Revelation 9:1 Can you go all the way back to Revelation 1 with Jesus who was given keys( more than one) to death and Hades and not look at Chapter 5? I think not! One needs to look at the angels chapter 5 through 9 who obey the lamb! All was done because the blood of Jesus Christ!

    Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abysswas given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit.

    Note:

    I guess I will keep going! I suppose because Michael is the only angel named in Revelations does make him different but does it make him him Jesus? When Jesus was given an unknown name and Michael has a name? But could he be a strong angel, or mighty angel. No proof of that either! There is one scripture that express Jesus a the bright and morning star!

    Question: Perhaps someone else can explain the bright and morning star verses star fallen?

    Revelation 14:

    7And I saw another angel flying in midheaven

    8 And another, a second angel, followed, saying:

    9And another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice

    15And another angel emerged from the temple

    17And still another angel emerged from the temple

    18 And still another angel emerged from the altar and he had authority over the fire

    Here comes the bowls:

    16:1 And I heard a loud voice out of the sanctuary say to the seven angels: “Go and pour out the seven bowls of the anger of God into the earth.”

    2 And the first one(angel) etc!

    And the third one poured out his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of the waters. And they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel over the waters say: “You, the One who is and who was, the loyal One, are righteous, because you have rendered these decisions,

    Question: Can anyone tell me who the WTBTS says this is in the Revelation It’s Grand Climax book Can you cross reference their NWT with which Scripture they apply it with. I believe it has something to do with Daniel and a mighty or strong angel. Also, Hebrew 1 angels. Was this another change in doctrine to match mighty or strong angels?

    Revelation 18:1

    1 After these things I saw another angel

    21 And a strong angel WTBTS say this is Jesus!

    Note:

    The Lamb is in authority over the scroll and all these angels are that are on his side with their bowls, trumpets, and woes and they are obeying him.

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