Paul and Jesus

by Slappy 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    I've noticed you adhere consistently to the angle that Paul, when stating "I", was referring to quotes of those he disagreed with. I would like to know the foundation of that idea. What is your basis, other than wild speculation, for stating so?

    Brother Apostate,

    I discovered this after listening to the New Testament on tape over and over again for more than a year in the 70's. This is how I learned the truth about the so called Governing Body the WT proclaimed so proudly. This is how I learned about the struggle the Faith was enduring for over 40 years and the failures of its leadership and many other things of interest. Usually I would listen while going back and forth to work. This seemed to be a good use of the time. It was much later that I noticed in some bible notes that others (scholars) realized at least some of this in that Paul was responding to their letter but they failed to carry through to the rest of 1Cor with this observation. Paul’s letters were actually a dialog at times much like a thread here on JWD where he quotes or refers to their views and uses them to cancel out or refute such views. 1 Cor chapter 15 is critical in this regard as he refers to their doctrines like astrology (celestial bodies) for instance and redirects such wrong teachers in Corinth to the truth. These are some of the references found on 1 Cor chapter 8.

    Jamieson, Fausset Brown Commentary

    . Though to those knowing that an idol has no existence, the question of eating meats offered to idols (referred to in the letter of the Corinthians, compare #1Co 7:1) might seem unimportant, it is not so with some, and the infirmities of such should be respected. The portions of the victims not offered on the altars belonged partly to the priests, partly to the offerers; and were eaten at feasts in the temples and in private houses and were often sold in the markets; so that Christians were constantly exposed to the temptation of receiving them, which was forbidden (#Nu 25:2 Ps 106:28). The apostles forbade it in their decree issued from Jerusalem (#Ac 15:1-29 21:25); but Paul does not allude here to that decree, as he rests his precepts rather on his own independent apostolic authority.

    we know that we all have knowledge—The Corinthians doubtless had referred to their "knowledge" (namely, of the indifference of meats, as in themselves having no sanctity or pollution). Paul replies, "We are aware that we all have [speaking generally, and so far as Christian theory goes; for in #1Co 8:7 he speaks of some who practically have not] this knowledge."

    Knowledge puffeth up—when without "love." Here a parenthesis begins; and the main subject is resumed in the same words, #1Co 8:4. "As concerning [touching] therefore the eating, " etc. "Puffing up" is to please self. "Edifying" is to please one’s neighbor; Knowledge only says, All things are lawful for me; Love adds, But all things do not edify [BENGEL], (#1Co 10:23 Ro 14:15).

    edifieth—tends to build up the spiritual temple (#1Co 3:9 6:19)

    Peoples new testament:

    #1Co 8:1-3 The Duty of the Strong Toward Weaker Brethren

    SUMMARY OF I CORINTHIANS 8: Meat Offered in Idol Temples. Not Changed Because So Offered. But Not to Be Eaten Because of Weaker Brethren. Those Having Knowledge Must Act in Love.

    As touching things offered unto idols. Corinth, like all Greek cities, was full of temples to heathen idols. At their altars victims were constantly sacrificed, the flesh of which was afterwards eaten. The question arose whether a Christian could eat of such flesh without the sin of showing deference to an idol. Perhaps the letter to Paul (#1Co 7:1) had asked about this matter.

    We all have knowledge. Some pleaded their knowledge that "an idol was nothing" [#1Co 8:4], not divine in any sense. Paul tells them that the question is one, not of knowledge, but of charity.

    Knowledge puffeth up. Those who professed to be knowing ones put on an air of superiority.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Then I could actually see contexually into the text and the abrupt kick in the guts type answers that Paul sometimes used to correct them now stood out. Like the single Greek letter "What" 1 Cor 14:36. What a dressing down he gave and quick. And transitional phrases stood out so you knew who was talking and why. Then there were verses like this; 1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. This and the material on women along with the personal pronoun "I" was a direct quote from their letter this time. It sounds great and the WT supports it. But reading a bit further we learn that Paul does not. It was Corinthian doctine that structured the Faith serially to suppress women as Jews tended to do. What did Paul do? He corrected them and argued this point like this: 1 Cor 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

    Of course. So I wrote up a little article on Women Equal in the Faith and put it in my supplement called: Beyond Watchtower Doctrine found on my web page. It downloads with the book. It was still a bit crude but some later copied it word for word and used it, later improving it as they grasped the subject. I did not bother to improve it myself as it only needed to stimulate thinking and it did that for them. Since then I have seen some fine articles originated by others about women and that was good enough.

    Joseph

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    slappy does what everyone does when they won't answer a real argument: he quits.

    : Farkel:

    I'm done, it's clear that you won't even attempt to understand what the Bible is saying and are only attempting to argue and to ridicule that which you don't understand. Perhaps when you're willing to at least gain a basic understanding of the whole Bible, we can discuss at further length. Until then, enjoy twisting things beyond recognition to please yourself...I must say, you are very much a 'student' of the Watchtower.

    To show that you are not a total loser, but only a major loser, why don't you just address that little sticky point about Genesis 36:31 that I brought up. It's only a little verse, sloppy, er, slappy. What say you? Why won't you address just that one little verse?

    Or will you run away after you use yet another ad hominem about me and pretend that no one will notice? Everyone with half a brain will notice, but maybe that is above the qualifications of your intended audience.

    Farkel

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    snowbird,

    Thank you for your comments. At least (unlike slappy) you made an attempt to make an argument. For those on the board that don't know me, I've been dealing with these issues actively (at least until the last year or so) for a dozen years. I treat people with the same level of respect that they treat me. If they are jerks, I can be the jerk from hell. If they offer a respectful argument, even if it doesn't hold water, I will answer it in kind. Mostly!

    You said:

    :If I could say something about Genesis 36:31? Thank you.

    :Perhaps Moses, or whoever wrote this, was anticipating the Israelites' request for a king?

    Perhaps, but consider the context when it was supposedly written. Moses and his band of vagabonds were enslaved in Egypt for 400 years. God messed up Egypt with 10 plagues. Pharoah (or Yul Brynner, I'm not sure which) finally released them. The only thing that the newly freed slaves wanted was freedom and to get the heck away from Egypt and find a local Starbucks if at all possible.

    The second part of your assertion was that the Israelites would look 450 years into the future and yearn for a King, so that caused Moses to respond and speak about future Kings of Israel in the PAST TENSE. This would only make sense to someone seriously using drugs. Moreover, the Israelites lived for 400 years under a Pharoah who was a King with absolutely authority. It would seem ridiculous to a dummy like me that the first thing they would yearn for in the wilderness was to get another King! Perhaps that is why they tried Judges, starting with Joshua, for 450 years before they forgot their past and then wanted Kings.

    Finally, how could Moses "anticipate" the Israelites request for a King? More importantly and THIS demolishes all apologies for that anachronism, Moses was speaking about those (future) Kings in the past tense!

    This can only lead to the solid assertion of corruption of Scripture since that anachronism is not possible to refute.

    If God allows for ONE corruption of Scripture, what else can one trust in Scripture? What does that say about God's investment in that scripture, if any? Doesn't it also strongly suggest that that Scripture may not even have originated from God or even been approved by God, or at least, if initially approved that God lost interest in keeping it pure?

    Farkel

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    as usual FARKEL - 100% pure logic that is extremely difficult to refute that is why our friend has had to resort to ignoring or ad hominems

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Sylvia,

    Another thought here. You were quoting from Deuteronomy which is a most disturbing book. It is disturbing because the WTS and even Jewish Scholars attribute Moses as the author. The last chapter of that book (witten by "Moses') describes Moses as the most meek/humble man who ever lived, the only who had personally seen God. "Moses" wrote that book, according to scholars. Moses was "meek?" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    "Moses" also described his own death and burial, which was ALSO written in the PAST TENSE. That is a pretty spectacular thing to do for someone who is still alive: writing in the past tense about one's own death and the reason for it. Moses mastered the art of the past tense, writing as in the future about things as if they had already happened but before they actually happened.

    :And make sure he doesn't build up a harem, collecting wives who will divert him from the straight and narrow. And make sure he doesn't pile up a lot of silver and gold.

    That makes Soloman a huge dirtbag, yet he is treated kindly in scripture. I kind of admire the guy. He sure had some good times. I wouldn't know what to do with hundreds of concubines, but given enough time, I would figure out something to do with them.

    Farkel

  • Slappy
    Slappy

    Knew that was coming.

    If I don't hang around and run in endless circles with you, then I'm 'slinking' away from questions that I can't answer. If I do hang around, we end up running in circles and nothing really gets accomplished.

    Do you agree that context is important to understanding the Bible? I do. Context is everything. Your 'context' is that the Bible is a book, written by men (who were apparently on some sort of hallucenagenic), that is so full of fabulous fables and contradictions that is should have been ridiculed out of existence long ago. If I had the same context, I too would view it just as you do. However, I don't. The context I view it in is that it is the inspired Word of God. When viewed in that context, there are no 'issues'.

    Some argue that that is too convenient. Maybe it is. Being a mere man, I cannot say with 100% certainty that it is or isn't. What I know is this. Seeing where I am today in my life, and seeing where I could have been had I not begun to delve into God's Word...that gives me complete confidence that there is One above who truly cares.

  • free2beme
    free2beme

    I think Paul created Jesus to gain power. As you know Jesus was just a compilation of regional myths and there was not exactly a shortage of people who claimed to be the Messiah in those days, and leaving open plenty of opportunity for a smart man to move in on. There was not 24 media to contradict him.

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    slappy,

    I just wish you would be more formidable. I don't get jollies out of shooting fish in a barrel.

    You said:

    :Knew that was coming.

    Psychic, you are! This is good!

    :If I don't hang around and run in endless circles with you, then I'm 'slinking' away from questions that I can't answer. If I do hang around, we end up running in circles and nothing really gets accomplished.

    Another strawman. There are no "endless circles", slappy. Just facts from the Bible that you simply refuse to deal with: Genesis 36:31. You won't even attempt to deal with that one, single verse.

    :Do you agree that context is important to understanding the Bible? I do. Context is everything.

    Sure, but I wasn't talking about "context." I was talking about "content." I'm sure you can understand the difference. Well, actually, I'm not sure you can understand the difference, but since you are smart enough to keep changing the subject, then maybe you ARE smart enough to know the difference.

    : Your 'context' is that the Bible is a book, written by men (who were apparently on some sort of hallucenagenic), that is so full of fabulous fables and contradictions that is should have been ridiculed out of existence long ago. If I had the same context, I too would view it just as you do. However, I don't.

    No, that is not it at all. I never used any of the words that you used. The word I used was "anachronism." Please address my argument and quit making up shit about what you think I actually said.

    :The context I view it in is that it is the inspired Word of God. When viewed in that context, there are no 'issues'.

    the context that I view life is that invisible purple unicorns are flying about my head and whispering the words of God to me. When viewed in that context, there are no issues. PROVE ME WRONG.

    :Some argue that that is too convenient. Maybe it is.

    No more convenient than my invisible purple unicorns. No less, either. My invisible friends are no more reliable and no less reliable than your invisible friends, my friend.

    : Being a mere man, I cannot say with 100% certainty that it is or isn't.

    No, you can say with NO certainty that it is or isn't: NO certainty. Not 100%, not 10%, not even 1% certainty.

    : What I know is this. Seeing where I am today in my life, and seeing where I could have been had I not begun to delve into God's Word...that gives me complete confidence that there is One above who truly cares.

    Now THAT I can understand! For (believe it or not) I also believe (without your "complete confidence", though) that there is also One above who truly cares. Now we are talking about our beliefs, and beliefs (and faith) are above and separate from facts.

    Don't mix up the two next time my friend, and we will always get along just fine and dandy. My facts and my logic and my beliefs never can and never will get along with each other. I accept that, and I hope you can accept that, too.

    Farkel

  • wobble
    wobble

    I have no difficulty in believing that Genesis was approved by God as part of his word,just because it may be included in the writings of Moses it does not preclude the God approved editing by a later hand,i.e the mention of the city of "Dan" in Chap.14v14.(the city no doubt existed in Abram's time,but was not known then as Dan) . Jesus refers to Jeremiah I believe,but quotes from another prophet,so "Moses" may not have had a huge percentage of input to Genesis

    Good to see you back with guns ablazing Farkel !

    Love

    wobble

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Finally, how could Moses "anticipate" the Israelites request for a King? More importantly and THIS demolishes all apologies for that anachronism, Moses was speaking about those (future) Kings in the past tense!

    This can only lead to the solid assertion of corruption of Scripture since that anachronism is not possible to refute.

    Moses was a prophet, foreshadowing the greatest Prophet to whom past, present, and future are meaningless. You think that may have some bearing on the matter?

    Sylvia

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