Matthew Makes Another Error

by JosephAlward 109 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  siegswife

  (((No one is innocent. Just like you. You're as guilty as sin too.)))

  While I agree with that, I DON'T agree that is true of children while they are children. I've realized something recently.

  I'm a wellinto middle aged woman who has 3 sons in their 20's and 3 grandchildren. I also have a 4 year old daughter.

  What I've seen in my life is that children, by nature, are rowdy and free. They don't understand 'no'. They rebel against 'no'. And 'no' is directly related to my tolerance level.

  If my children grow up to be 'sinful' it's because "I" didn't have the ability to instill in them the correct boundaries of 'no'. The sinfulness that exists today in my children is because of the 'nature' that they 'learned' or 'inherited' by me in a spiritual, emotional, or intellectual level, NOT because of anything that GOD put into them.

  I'm not sure if I expressed that clearly. Let me know.
• 

  pomegranate

  d0rkyd00d,

  When you get "edumucated", and know how to debate the issue at hand rather than attack the person, I'll be here waiting, OK?

  **************

  >>While I agree with that, I DON'T agree that is true of children while they are children.<<

  Are you saying sin is accomplished by a first action(s) and not an inherited condition?

  So you do not believe this passage:

  Rom 5:14
  14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command,

  Isn't the above saying that death is a result of a sinful condition, and is not sin that is a result of a bad action or doing something wrong (breaking a command)? Rather, inherited sin, the type shown to be passed down from Adam to Moses? Even babies and children are subject to death, and death is because of "sin." If babies and children were not in sin, there would be an immunity of babies and children dying until they committed their first "sin."

  Yet, babies and young children die. If they die, they must be in sin, as sin and death are bound to each other.

  >>NOT because of anything that GOD put into them.<<

  I don't believe sin is something God put in us, as sin is bad. That thinking makes God bad. I believe sin is a condition resulting of something that God has removed from us, as a result of the actions of the first two, influenced by the first one.
• 

  d0rkyd00d

  Correct me if i'm mistaken, but i believe it was on this same topic that you yourself were attacking josef. take your own advice about not attacking the person hypocrite! and MEEERRRY CHRISTMAS!

  "No cool quote yet, but i'll think of one soon."
• 

  pomegranate

  >>but i believe it was on this same topic that you yourself were attacking josef.<<

  If the documented debate proves a blatant falsity being submitted as fact to hold ones "position," then a liar can be called for what he has plainly done, right? I think so. So, I believe you are mistaken and are now corrected.

  Merry Christmas.
• 

  Abaddon

  Hello Pom... I've put your responses in quotes along with the comments that you were responding to;

  >>Tell you what, you kneel at the feet of that disgusting blood-stained tribal diety who punishes the innocent. I'll just stare in amasement.<<

  No one is innocent. Just like you. You're as guilty as sin too.

  Was that an answer? No, it wasn't, it was just switch and bait. I notice you do not look at refuting the explicit point of my post, that if god punishes children for the sins of their forefathers, god is being unjust. You mentioning that everyone is a sinner is not pertinant; we have a specific statement that says god is punishing people for OTHER people's crimes, not their own inherant sin. Now, as you seem to be a Biblical literalist, I'll be interested to see how you can interpret that otherwise.

  >>Let's make a big fat assumption in the face of no evidence, let's assume that this god actually exists.<<

  No evidence? Did you pass your bowels today? There is a God.

  As good an arguement by a creationist as any; "I shit therefore god made me". You don't really need anyone to parody you, do you? You do quite well on your own!

  >>Do you consider worshipping a god who punishes innocent people to be in any way morally justifiable?<<

  There is no such thing as innocent people. People are born guilty.

  I suppose you are talking about 'inherited' guilt. The sin we inherit from Adam. So even if we are talking about this, your god is still punishing people for another person's sin. Is that fair? Even a child could tell you that isn't fair.

  >>Isn't it a little like worshipping Hitler just so he doesn't punish you?<<

  No, Hitler didn't give me my life, so your example is in the dumpster.

  Okay, ignore the other half of the example, the bit you can't refute, about god being an unfair monster.

  >>Faced with worshipping such a being or being punished by such a being, I'd go with the being punished any day. I have some morals.<<

  Maybe you'll get your wish, and you having morals is you blowing your own horn.

  I am saying that I find punishing people for other people's sins is wrong. I make no statement regarding any other morals I may or may not have.

  >>Being god does not automatically give one the right to be worshipped.<<

  From what book does that come from? The book of YOU? Only a false "god" would make such an ignorant statement.

  Well, we just have to disagree. I actually think it's not just a disagreement, but a fundamental failure on your part to comprehend the situation. To me, even if god DID create us, if god DOES punish people for other people's sins, then worshipping it would be approving these unjust actions. I cannot do that, it offends my conscience. You might not see its actions as unjust, but I see not one arguement on your part to this end. You are just saying my opinion is wrong. Why not prove me wrong? Show the ignorance of my statement.

  >>One has to earn the worship by one's qualitites.<<

  Yeah. Right. The one who gave the life is instantly deserving of the worship. Yet you piss on the life giver?

  No, the one giving life is not instantly deserving of worship. That is like saying that ALL fathers deserve respect, even those that abuse their children.

  >>And child murderers and accesories to the rape of children don't have those qualities, not even if they did make the Universe.<<

  Really? God gives life but has has no right to take it away if He so desires for those that piss on Him? You're bass akwards. Every single time life was extinguished in the Bible, God was fully warranted and justified. (Show me God being an accessory to raping children.)

  Ah, you fall over your own feet! If god gave life, he would arguably be in his rights to take away life from those that piss on him. However, as I have pointed out, to punish children for someone else's sin is unfair. You still don't address the issue! What's the matter, got no answer? God, in the scripture I quoted, is essentially saying "I will punish the children of those that piss on me, for several generations".

  As for being an accessory to child rape, I suggest you read the Biblical account of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine by the Israelites. There are several instances where the Israelites were commanded to kill adult men and women, and boy children, but to keep the virgin females alive. Given the rules regarding concubinage and slavery in the law, to imagine all these virgin girls would then engage in consensual sexual intercourse with the soldiers who killed their entire family is stupidity. Some of them may have been adults by the standards of the time... maybe even as old as 14.

  So, as a direct concequence of his laws and commandments, your god was a party to children being held down and raped by the soldiers who had killed their parents.

  >>If this is the nature of god, can we believe what it says about Satan in this being's propoganda tract? Maybe Satan is not a terrorist, but is actually a freedom fighter!<<

  Yeah baby. You just made you line in the sand. You sure you like that side of it?

  You seem to have problems differentiating with logical arguement and actual beliefs as this shows;

  >>Of course, that sounds absurd.<<

  No it doesn't. You believe it to be true.

  IF there is a god, and IF the Bible is god's word, then what I am saying WOULD be true. I am not saying it IS true. If anything the belief in Satan is even more ridiculous than the belief in YHWH.

  However, I DON'T believe the Bible is god's word, and I definately DON'T believe in the god spoken about in the Bible, for the reasons I have outlined.

  Notice the use of the word 'if', 'would', 'is' and 'don't'.

  >>But then so is your idea of god Pom. Make sure you wipe the blood off when you get off your knees!!<<

  The only blood on my knees is my own.

  Kinky, and untrue.

  >>Of course Pom, you probably have some distorted jusitification for worshipping such a being...<<

  Well, it's called people like you. Are you distorted?

  Ah, so someone who points out that the nature of god as revealed by a book written by Bronze Age goatherds is actually morally repugnant to modern man, and that the story of the origin of life contained in the same book is pretty damn funny by modern standards, is the reason you believe in a blood-stained tribal diety?

  Oh, I think that's giving me entirely too much power. I think you believe in it because you have never really thought about it and are afraid to think about it as your entire life is built on a set of assumptions that vary from the ludicrous to the repugnant, the relinquishing of which would cause you great emotional and social termoil.

  >>People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...<<

  Then, put down your rocks.

  You're the one who has to prove that the punishment of children for other people's sins is a moral action!

  I have no problem if you want to believe in god Pom, go ahead. But believing the Bible is an accurate representation of any god is foolishness, for reasons such as the ones I have outlined.

  
  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
• 

  pomegranate

  >>that if god punishes children for the sins of their forefathers, god is being unjust. You mentioning that everyone is a sinner is not pertinant;<<

  Deut 24:16
  16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.

  When one is put to death at the hand of God, it is for the individuals own sin. Including children. Which means when children were put down by God, it was obviously for the inheirted type of sin as they are not capable of performing intellectual sin. Simple logic.

  "Punishment" from God was not always the death sentence. Examine your Bible. Find the times God punished children for their fathers error without death. There are many many times. Like wandering through the wilderness for 40 years. The children were punished for the sins of their forefathers. They were NOT put to death. But they were punished.

  Punishment = death/not death
  Sin = death

  Does God have the right to terminate a babies life on account of inherited sin? YES HE DOES. But He also has the right to resurrect whoever He wants too. If God brings down a baby in sin, a just God would bring it back up in righteousness. That is Justice.

  >>>Now, as you seem to be a Biblical literalist, I'll be interested to see how you can interpret that otherwise.<<

  See the above.

  >>As good an arguement by a creationist as any; "I shit therefore god made me". You don't really need anyone to parody you, do you? You do quite well on your own!<<

  In with the good, out with the bad. The body mimicks the eventual reality of ALL creation.

  >>I suppose you are talking about 'inherited' guilt. The sin we inherit from Adam. So even if we are talking about this, your god is still punishing people for another person's sin. Is that fair? Even a child could tell you that isn't fair.<<

  Well, are you blaming God for inherited sin, because that is the issue? The blame should be on the CAUSE of the sin should it not?Satan? If you read your Bible with open eyes a procreative species would be perfectly GOOD if not contaminated. So are you going to put the blame on God for a corruption He didn't create? Just because He made a creation that passed everything down does not make God UNJUST. The injustice comes from Satan. Even a child could read the Genesis account and identify the BAD, and the child would positively NOT point the finger at God. But you do?

  >>I am saying that I find punishing people for other people's sins is wrong. I make no statement regarding any other morals I may or may not have.<<

  Well, who put the punishment in motion??? God did not and you can't say He did. Satan brought all evil into the world AS SOMETHING NEW, and it was corrupting everyone God creatd. There would be NOTHING unscathed by this hate monger. It was like an infectious bacteria that would spread, and did spread.

  God created Adam and Eve as a species that would pass down GOOD. Satan caused this GOOD species to pass down BAD. Who's fault?

  >>Well, we just have to disagree. I actually think it's not just a disagreement, but a fundamental failure on your part to comprehend the situation. To me, even if god DID create us, if god DOES punish people for other people's sins, then worshipping it would be approving these unjust actions.<<

  Again, the source of the first sin, is the source of the death. Which is not God. Procreative species are good, they would pass on life. Contaminated procreative species are bad, they would pass on death. You and I are the latter. The latter is NOT God's creation, it is Satan's. Since the latter is NOT God's and is defiled, he can with FULL JUSTIFICATION destroy anything that is corrupt and not His own.

  The latter was permitted by God so as to start the ball rolling to get rid of the source of the corruption. It all has to do with bringing LAW into existence, so the one who is the true source of INJUSTICE can be put down. Making Law would take time.

  >>I cannot do that, it offends my conscience. You might not see its actions as unjust, but I see not one arguement on your part to this end. You are just saying my opinion is wrong. Why not prove me wrong? Show the ignorance of my statement.<<

  A tid bit. There was NO LAW in heaven against what Satan was doing. So He went on doing what he was doing assuming that there could be nothing God could do to stop him. Ever. When there is no Law, sin (breaking law) is not AND CANNOT be taken into account now can it?

  God is so just, that He could not put Satan down because there was NO LAW that Satan broke with an attached punishment. God would fix that problem by bringing LAW into being through another creation called mankind.

  >>No, the one giving life is not instantly deserving of worship. That is like saying that ALL fathers deserve respect, even those that abuse their children.<<

  When the one WHO IS GOD gives anyone THE GIFT OF LIFE, and this God by creative example glows as the epitome' of all the LOVE there could ever be, the one who dares insinuate that God abuses His children is the one who's shoes I would care NOT to walk in.

  >>As for being an accessory to child rape, I suggest you read the Biblical account of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine by the Israelites. There are several instances where the Israelites were commanded to kill adult men and women, and boy children, but to keep the virgin females alive. Given the rules regarding concubinage and slavery in the law, to imagine all these virgin girls would then engage in consensual sexual intercourse with the soldiers who killed their entire family is stupidity.<<

  That's what I thought. Total YOU fabrication that I would not even hesitate to call an out right lie. Keep your lies out of this debate. If you state something as bold as God beiong an accessory to rape, you better come up with the PROOF, not ridiculous lying speculations

  Why do I get the gut feeling you were raped? Any one that can read that balshpemy into the Bible must have something personal behind it.

  >>You're the one who has to prove that the punishment of children for other people's sins is a moral action!<<

  >>I have no problem if you want to believe in god Pom, go ahead. But believing the Bible is an accurate representation of any god is foolishness, for reasons such as the ones I have outlined.<<

  The above statement is made in your ignorance, which can be fixed. If the tool to fix it comes along and you refuse it, your ignorance becomes stupidity.
• 

  Abaddon

  I found this interesting;

  When one is put to death at the hand of God, it is for the individuals own sin. Including children. Which means when children were put down by God, it was obviously for the inheirted type of sin as they are not capable of performing intellectual sin. Simple logic.

  So, god does kill kids for inherited sin. Even if they are not guilty of sin themselves. I am glad we agree that he does it, even if we disagree whether this is in any way just.

  Did I say kids? Oh no, it's even worse;

  Does God have the right to terminate a babies life on account of inherited sin? YES HE DOES. But He also has the right to resurrect whoever He wants too. If God brings down a baby in sin, a just God would bring it back up in righteousness. That is Justice.

  So god can kill intellectually innocent babies on account of inherited sin, as long as he brings it back. Do you mean a physical ressurection?

  And what about a sinful woman, about to give birth, destroyed by god or by his will for her sins or inherited sin, killing the unborn full-term baby. God has killed women like that. Are the babies raised up as you mention, even though they did not die, not having lived? I suppose under the law given to Moses, if men fighting cause a miscarraige or damage to an unborn, they are punished in like terms.

  If you don't believe those that have never lived are raised up again, then god is responsible, in such an instance as outlined above, for utterly obliterating such a child.

  But this is all distasteful. I have to say your literalistic interpretation of the Bible is devoid of any divinity or light. Just the threats of a destroying creator god who will break the toys he made if they don't want to play with him.

  Not my idea of god. Not a god I'd be happy worshipping. In fact, such an offensive illogical idea of god I doubt the book that says this about god is anything other than just another book written by humans, nothing special, just a few good aphorisms and poetry.

  Thus far your arguement for the existence of god has been something between the ridiculous and arguement from incredulity, with a little bit of the laws of thermodynamics thrown in. Not a strong arguement really. You seem to find the idea of evolution increadable. How much of a creationist are you?

  Don't you find that ALL the evidence points to the Bible NOT being literal?

  As for me "blaming God for inherited sin", well, I think god handled the situation badly. Another reason why I don't think the Bible is god's word.

  Say your parents told you not to play on the swing. When you did, they threw you out of the house, and told you that you were going to die AND that this genetic infection would be passed to your unborn children. Is that reasonable?

  Say that rather than doing anything about the situation THEN, other than the kicking out bit, you told them (and their children) that the question of whether god was right to direct mankind in their ways would be resolved by letting mankind direct their ways. But that, rather than being perfect as before, they would age and die, thus making the chance of them getting their shit together in the few years given them remote to nothing. Is that fair?

  You either haven't thought about it or you think it is fair, and I disagree with you. If that's what god is doing, then god isn't fair.

  Oh, and any child reading Genesis might see that Adam and Eve did bad, but will quite probably admit that they would do the same. It was a set-up. And that's not fair.

  So if I read the Bible I have to believe god is some kind of unfair monster or that the Bible is just a book.

  It's not like its actually ever predicted anything ever happening, is it (yes, that is designed to move the discussion on to discussion of unfulfilled prophecy)?

  Oh, you say;

  God created Adam and Eve as a species that would pass down GOOD. Satan caused this GOOD species to pass down BAD. Who's fault?

  Nah, god made imperfection a punishment. There were other, better, fairer ways, but just like other 'gods' in religious books, YHWH is disappointingly human.

  I mean, look at this;

  There was NO LAW in heaven against what Satan was doing. So He went on doing what he was doing assuming that there could be nothing God could do to stop him. Ever. When there is no Law, sin (breaking law) is not AND CANNOT be taken into account now can it?

  God is so just, that He could not put Satan down because there was NO LAW that Satan broke with an attached punishment. God would fix that problem by bringing LAW into being through another creation called mankind.

  Ah, so god made a mistake. Or allowed a set of events happen that lead to Adamic sin. One implies imperfection, the other implies incompetance or a game player. No possible 'godlike' qualities there!

  Then there's the implied threats, as apparently one cannot question god even if one has good motives (despite Biblical evidence to the contrary);

  When the one WHO IS GOD gives anyone THE GIFT OF LIFE, and this God by creative example glows as the epitome' of all the LOVE there could ever be, the one who dares insinuate that God abuses His children is the one who's shoes I would care NOT to walk in.

  But with your cponception of god, its scarely surprising you start threatening, as that is what you believe god is!

  You also make a very interesting twist over my arguement about god being an accesory to child rape, despite having no evidence to refute a logical analysis of what would happen in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

  That's what I thought. Total YOU fabrication that I would not even hesitate to call an out right lie. Keep your lies out of this debate. If you state something as bold as God beiong an accessory to rape, you better come up with the PROOF, not ridiculous lying speculations

  Why do I get the gut feeling you were raped? Any one that can read that balshpemy into the Bible must have something personal behind it.

  I really have to change that picture... it is me, but you're the umpteenth person whose thought that I am a girl... although men can be raped, of course, I don;t think you met that.

  Yet what do you do? Where is the love? If I thought someone was reacting a certain way because of a terrible event like that, I would try to understand and help. To you I'm just blaspheming because I've been raped. If it were true you would be one hell of an insensitive horse's ass. Even with it NOT being true, I shudder to think how you reconcile that attitude with a Christian mindset.

  Judge a tree by its fruits, eh?

  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
• 

  pomegranate

  >>Judge a tree by its fruits, eh?<<

  Even better, judge a tree by its root.

  Rom 11:16
  if the root is holy, so are the branches.

  In contrast if the root is defiled, so are the branches. If the fruit is bad, the branches are bad, the root is bad. It all starts out at the root, Adam and Eve.

  >>>If you don't believe those that have never lived are raised up again, then god is responsible, in such an instance as outlined above, for utterly obliterating such a child.<<

  If you don't believe that God can raise them up, how can you believe that God put them down? You can't have one without the other, as both truths come from the same book.

  >>Don't you find that ALL the evidence points to the Bible NOT being literal?<<

  No, because all you have given me is your opinions, ALL opinions, not one shread of evidence. If God made the root good, and someone else defiled the root causing the whole tree to be bad, it is up to the Life Giver of the root to do with the defiled tree as He sees fit, whether temper tantrum branches of the defiled tree like you, like it or not.

  That makes people like you powerless. That makes people like you unsettled to know they have absolutely no control. You are supported by the root, that root is rotten.

  Rom 11:18
  You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

  Whatever that root is, good or rotten, so is it's children. You are rotten.

  >>Say your parents told you not to play on the swing. When you did, they threw you out of the house, and told you that you were going to die AND that this genetic infection would be passed to your unborn children. Is that reasonable?<<

  You see, it's people like you that get things BACKWARDS and pretend they know what their talking about, that makes them look foolish.

  The story would go like this. "Don't play on the swing or you will die."

  Forewarned of impending danger. That's what a loving parent would do.

  But if you read your rendering above, the death sentence was told AFTER the offense, so it was a big unjust surprise AFTER THE FACT. That would be unfair, and YOU are unfair for portaying that fact as an injustice by your inaccurate portrayal of the truth.

  Re-read your Bible. You have it WRONG. Again.

  >>but you're the umpteenth person whose thought that I am a girl...<<

  If that's your real photo, I suggest you grow a beard, err somethin.

  Merry Christmas.
• 

  Abaddon

  I love the fact, on the thread about why god permits evil, you happily admit that some of what you believe is not purely scriptual, but based on your opinion of the correlation between scirpture and the world as you see it. You then say "all you have given me is your opinions, ALL opinions, not one shread of evidence".

  Well, I suppose we have BOTH done that, so why is it wrong for me and not for you?

  You nicely ignore the point I made about you accusing me of being a blasphmous rape victim being rather non-Christian in its display of fruits, so I'll ignore the switch and bait you make.

  Then it get silly;

  If you don't believe that God can raise them up, how can you believe that God put them down? You can't have one without the other, as both truths come from the same book.

  So, if I don't believe everything your little Hebrew-Aramaic version of Chicken Soup for the Soul says, I can't point out the stupid nits? That's silly!!

  I ask in a nice conversational fashion "Don't you find that ALL the evidence points to the Bible NOT being literal?", and you say;

  No, because all you have given me is your opinions, ALL opinions, not one shread of evidence. If God made the root good, and someone else defiled the root causing the whole tree to be bad, it is up to the Life Giver of the root to do with the defiled tree as He sees fit, whether temper tantrum branches of the defiled tree like you, like it or not.

  That makes people like you powerless. That makes people like you unsettled to know they have absolutely no control. You are supported by the root, that root is rotten.

  Ah, being 'Christian' again are we... do be a dear and wipe the spittle off your screen and try to play nice, okay?

  I disagree I have failed to provide 'proof' and have only provided 'opinion' to any extent more than you have. You cite the Bible as it is your opinion it is relevent but to me it's just your opinion. If I wait five minutes there will be another Christian along with a different opinion about some of these self same scriptures, so even to other CHristians, you have nothing but opinion.

  You want proof? The creation account is a joke, unsupported by science, that indicates the Bible is no more god's word than the Guru Ganash (sp?) or the Bhgadvavita (sp?) or the Book of Mormon.

  In the example I used about a swing, parents and children, you swoop on one thing and ignore the rest. Even IF the parents told the kids that they would kill them if they played on the swing before they played on the swing, and make sure all their children died, it STILL wouldn't be reasonable!! Don't you see that? Use you 'god given conscience'!! We had freewill, we used it, and got punished for using it when the use of it was obviously going to occur. And it was just a swing/fruit tree.

  THAT'S why the Bible is obviously symbolic. The minute you take it literally, you hit logical brick walls. It's so obvious it is symbolic most people assume it.

  Apologies for being too damn pretty for words... I look male to me... I think I might start a vote on it though.

  People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
• 

  pomegranate

  >>I love the fact, on the thread about why god permits evil, you happily admit that some of what you believe is not purely scriptual, but based on your opinion of the correlation between scirpture and the world as you see it. You then say "all you have given me is your opinions, ALL opinions, not one shread of evidence".

  Well, I suppose we have BOTH done that, so why is it wrong for me and not for you?<<

  You called your position "evidence" now didn't you? Yes you did. And I quote:

  Don't you find that ALL the evidence points to the Bible NOT being literal?

  I clearly qualified my position and called mine reasoning. That's why your wrong, because you lie about evidence you do not have.

  >>You nicely ignore the point I made about you accusing me of being a blasphmous rape victim being rather non-Christian in its display of fruits, so I'll ignore the switch and bait you make.<<

  One, calling God an accessory to child rape is blashpemy, two I said my "gut feeling" (there was no accusation) because you seem bent and bitter in a sexually perverted way. That is often the case with "victims." If not, my apologies.

  >>You want proof? The creation account is a joke, unsupported by science,<<

  Show your "science" Bill Nye. I'm all ears, errr eyes.

  >>Even IF the parents told the kids that they would kill them if they played on the swing before they played on the swing, and make sure all their children died, it STILL wouldn't be reasonable!!<<

  Rom 5:20-21
  20 The law [Do not eat] was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

  >>THAT'S why the Bible is obviously symbolic. The minute you take it literally, you hit logical brick walls. It's so obvious it is symbolic most people assume it.<<

  I believe you wouldn't accept it even if it were the truth.

  >>Apologies for being too damn pretty for words<<

  That's called Narcissism.

  >>I look male to me... I think I might start a vote on it though.<<

  Knock yourself out.

  >>People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...<<

  Put down your rocks