(FYI I am not DFed or DAed) I am being shunned by my mom and yesterday my dad told me he would shun me if I ‘became apostate’. I swear he has no idea what he is talking about since I asked him who told him that and he asked, ‘doesn’t the bible?’
Although I have sent numerous emails, I think I need to finally face my father face to face. So, I need some help to gather some hard hitting pdfs/scans of quotes in the literature that will make him think. I.e. false prophecy, blood issue, doctrinal changes, pedophile cases, etc. I don’t know if it will work, but maybe seeing it in writing might help and actually getting him to talk about it, since I suspect he can’t defend his faith (he doesn’t read more than he has to). If you have any suggestions on topics to touch on, that would help too.
Anyhoo… if you have anything handy that you can put up for me to download, it would be greatly appreciated.
song19 aka Tigerlily
HELP need some hard hitting pdfs
by song19 20 Replies latest jw friends
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song19
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song19
anyone have the pdf of the watchtower for 1892?
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still_in74
formatting messed up .. see next post below
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still_in74
sorry, i cant seem to do any formatting of my 607 post without JWD giving me an error....
Here is an outline of the 607 BCE fallacy proven solely with WTS literature......
Babylon falls to Cyrus - 539 BCE 1
Sequence of Babylonian Kings counting backwards from 539 BCE
Nabonidus -- 17 years 2
Labashi-Marduk – less than 9 months 3
Neriglissar -- 4 years 4
Evil-Merodach -- 2 years 5
Nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years 6*1 - Fall of Babylon – 539 BCE
*** w68 8/15 p. 491 par. 18 The Book of Truthful Historical Dates ***
Recognized authorities of today accept 539 B.C.E. without any question as the year Babylon was overthrown by Cyrus the Great. In addition to the above quotations the following gives a small sampling from books of history representing a cross section of both general reference works and elementary textbooks. These brief quotations also show that this is not a date recently suggested, but one thoroughly investigated and generally accepted for the past sixty years.*** w07 10/1 p. 12 Highlights From the Books of Joel and Amos ***
What is “the day of Jehovah”? The day of Jehovah is the time of the execution of Jehovah’s judgment upon his enemies, resulting in destruction for them but salvation for true worshippers. For example, just such a day came upon ancient Babylon in 539 B.C.E. when it was conquered by the Medes and the Persians*2 - Nabonidus – 17 Years
*** it-2 p. 457 Nabonidus ***
Last supreme monarch of the Babylonian Empire; father of Belshazzar. On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some 17 years (556-539 B.C.E.)*** w68 8/15 p. 491 par. 17 The Book of Truthful Historical Dates ***
Other investigators say this: “The Nabunaid Chronicle . . . states that Sippar fell to Persian forces VII/14/17 (Oct. 10, 539), that Babylon fell VII/16/17 (Oct. 12), and that Cyrus entered Babylon VIII/3/17 (Oct. 29). This fixes the end of Nabunaid’s reign and the beginning of the reign of Cyrus. Interestingly enough, the last tablet dated to Nabunaid from Uruk is dated the day after Babylon fell to Cyrus. News of its capture had not yet reached the southern city some 125 miles distant.”—Brown University Studies, Vol. XIX, Babylonian Chronology 626 B.C.—A.D. 75, Parker and Dubberstein, 1956, p. 13.*3 - Labashi-Marduk – Less than 9 months
*** w65 1/1 p. 29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived ***
Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who reigned for four years, which time he spent mainly in building operations. His underage son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months. Nabonidus, who had served as governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar’s favorite son-in-law, took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign until Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E*4 - Nerglissar – 4 Years
*** w65 1/1 p. 29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived ***Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar, who reigned for four years, which time he spent mainly in building operations. His underage son Labashi-Marduk, a vicious boy, succeeded him, and was assassinated within nine months. Nabonidus, who had served as governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar’s favorite son-in-law, took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign until Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E
*5 - Evil-Merodach - 2 years
*** w65 1/1 p. 29 The Rejoicing of the Wicked Is Short-lived ***
Evil-merodach reigned two years and was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar*** it-1 p. 453 Chronology ***
For Awil-Marduk (Evil-merodach, 2Ki 25:27, 28), tablets dated up to his second year of rule have been found. For Neriglissar, considered to be the successor of Awil-Marduk, contract tablets are known dated to his fourth year*6 - Nebuchadnezzar - 43 years
*** it-2 p. 480 Nebuchadnezzar ***
Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years (624-582 B.C.E.), this period including the “seven times” during which he ate vegetation like a bull. (Da 4:31-33) To distinguish this monarch from the Babylonian ruler by the same name but of a much earlier period (the Isin dynasty), historians refer to him as Nebuchadnezzar II.
*** w00 5/15 p. 12 par. 13 Pay Attention to God’s Prophetic Word for Our Day ***
Learning that his father, Nabopolassar, had died, this young man named Nebuchadnezzar took the throne in 624 B.C.E. During his 43-year reign…*** w86 11/1 p. 5 A Dream Reveals How Late It Is ***
Since Nebuchadnezzar reigned for 43 years (624-581 B.C.E.), this is a reasonable conclusion.
If you count from the pivotal date 539BCE and use the regnal years of Kings (as shown above) you will count back to 586/587 BCE.
This exactly agrees with secular and non-secular historians.
The Watchtower clearly spells out the order of Kings and the number of years they reigned yet these very same numbers contradict 607BCE -
yknot
I wouldn't suggest that route too quickly!
He has said the "a" word
You will want to first to discuss what the bible say about WHO is an apostate.
8:13)13 Thus are the pathways of all those forgetting God, And the very hope of an apostate* will perish,(Job
The * is: Or, "ungodly (profane) one"; or, "anyone alienated from God."
This of course differs greatly from the Flock Books official definition:Persons who deliberately spread (stubbornly hold to and speak about) teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates .
Eventually you can point out that 'as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses ' seeks to be declared righteous by associating through a proclaimed legal theocracy.
(Galatians5:4) . . .YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness.
Eventually you can lead this to 1914, 1918-1919, but from there I would only use WT publications starting why 1874 was significant to Russell. I would also include Rutherford's delusions about his imprisonment.
Do not rush thing....... digesting solids is hard for those the WTS has kept on a strict milk diet.
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still_in74
if you go to the Search area, search titles containing "PDF" under username "Atlantis" and check "to start new topics"
You will get countless links to threads with countless PDF's..................
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yknot
RR has a site with some older publications to download. http://205.134.162.24/downloads/
I am slowly uploading my stuff to a 4shared file http://www.4shared.com/dir/7418711/d1ac4016/sharing.html
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leavingwt
You may discover what many of us have discovered. Unless a JW has decided to open his mind (rather than repeating responses implanted into their heads by the indoctrination), nothing will have an effect on them. You could literally show them a video of the entire Governing Body participating in a Satanic ritual or celebrating Christmas, and it would have zero effect on their opinion of 'God's Organization'. To the person under the spell of the mind control, no one single fact or error will shake their faith.
They live in the 'Now' and have no historical perspective of Christianity or of Watchtower history. The 'organization' is the wonderful, trusting friends that they can see and talk to. They honestly believe that a person who dares criticize Watchtower is an agent of the Devil.
Just something to keep in mind.
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still_in74
I wouldn't suggest that route too quickly!
actually I agree with Yknot on that,, perhaps 607 too deep for now.
For me I always seem to come back to the subject of "Light", particularily as it pertains to 1914, 1935 & the Generation.
The Generation can be an easy thing to start with as it is recent, and it has meant 3 different things in your fathers lifetime... even yours!
I have stated to JW's that I have found the new Generation issue "difficult to digest" and that I am "waiting on Jehovah". They will then ask "why's that?"
The nice thing about the "waiting on Jehovah" bit is that it takes the apostate out of it and makes you still sound like a brain-washed JW - thus other JW's feel comfortable around you and talk to you, even encourage your questions.You need to appeal to your fathers paternal instincts and get him to want to "help" you. You need help to understand. You are "stumbled" by this recent generation change.
Why would you be stumbled?Russell taught that "this generation" referred to people in general, who were living at a significant time in history:
The Battle of Armageddon pp. 603-605
But understanding genea here, as elsewhere, to mean generation,
and recognizing that our Lord's words were a
prophecy covering the entire Gospel age, we have no difficulty
in understanding the statement to mean--"This generation
[which will witness the signs inquired for by the
apostles and just enumerated by our Lord--namely, the
darkening of the sun and moon and the falling of the
stars]--this generation shall not pass away until all these
things be fulfilled." In other words, the signs mentioned will
occur within a generation-epoch in the close of the age. [...]
A "generation" might be reckoned as equivalent to a century
(practically the present limit) or one hundred and
twenty years, Moses' lifetime and the Scripture limit. (Gen. 6:3)
Reckoning a hundred years from 1780, the date of the
first sign, the limit would reach to 1880; and, to our understanding,
every item predicted had begun to be fulfilled at
that date; the "harvest" or gathering time beginning October
1874; the organization of the Kingdom and the taking
by our Lord of his great power as the King in April 1878,
and the time of trouble or "day of wrath" which began October
1874, and will cease about 1915; and the sprouting
of the fig tree. Those who choose might without inconsistency
say that the century or generation might as properly
reckon from the last sign, the falling of the stars, as from the
first, the darkening of the sun and moon: and a century beginning
1833 would be still far from run out. Many are living
who witnessed the star-falling sign. Those who are
walking with us in the light of present truth are not looking
for things to come which are already here, but are waiting
for the consummation of matters already in progress. Or,
since the Master said, "When ye shall see all these things,"
and since "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven," and the
budding fig tree, and the gathering of "the elect" are
counted among the signs, it would not be inconsistent to
reckon the "generation" from 1878 to 1914--36 1/2 years--
about the average of human life today.Rutherford altered this teaching in 1927 (Remember! "New Creation" = "Anointed"):
W 15. Feb. 1927, p. 62
Question: In Matthew 24:34 Jesus said: "Verily I
say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all
these things be fulfilled." What did he mean by "this
generation" ?
Answer: It could hardly be said that he meant any
human being living on the earth at that time. He was
giving testimony concerning things that were to transspire
at the end of the world. That was a long way off.
No generation of the human race has ever existed as
long as a thousand years. It follows then that Jesus
must have meant something else. What could he have
meant ? At the Jordan Jehovah started a new generation,
a new creation, of which Christ Jesus is the Head.
Jesus selected twelve disciples, who were with him for
three and one-half years. Eleven of these we have
every reason to believe constitute a part of that new creation.
In 1 Peter 2:9 the apostle, speaking to the church
of course, referred to those who are faithful. Theirresistible
conclusion therefore is that Jesus referred to
the new creation when he said: "This generation shall
not pass until all these things be fulfilled." This then
would be a strong indication that some members of the
new creation will be on the earth at the time of Armageddon.
http://i22.tinypic.com/34tbj14.jpgAfter Rutherford's death, the teaching was again altered, "generation" no longer synonymous with "anointed" ("new creation"):
W 01. July 1942, p.204 par. 43
So too after the winter of Armageddon the remnant
and their companions will come forth from their
protected place under God’s hiding and enter into the
glorious season of the Kingdom in its undisputed
power over earth. (Job 37: 22-24) Pointing to the
events of our time since 1914 Jesus said : "Behold the
fig tree, and all the trees ; when they now shoot forth,
ye see and know of your own selves that summer is
now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these
things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God
is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation
[including the remnant] shall not pass away till
all be fulfilled." (Luke 21:29-32) (Brackets in original)The teaching became more clearly defined in 1949 (and remained so until the major change in 1995):
W 15. July 1949, p. 215 par. 19
The generation of Jesus’ earthly days did not
thus see him arriving in Kingdom power. But that
generation was a prophetic illustration. It has its
modern counterpart in our generation from A.D. 1914
forward. This generation is the one that sees the Son
of man coming with the clouds of heaven as foretold
by Daniel, because in 1914, the year marking the end
of the Gentile times, Jehovah God gave the Kingdom
to him whose right it is.Thus the generation has had 4 different meanings 5 times. How did Jehovahs Holy Spirit teach Gods Channel - the FDS - something wrong? Afterall, if the current teaching is correct why did we change it in 1942/1949?
Did HS Lie? Or make a mistake? How can Gods chosen channel have "light" and then drift away from that light and still be gods channel? How can Jehovah allow His channel - His sole means of direction to His servants - teach a falsehood for aver 60 years when they had already had the truth before that?
This is indeed an unanswerable question for a JW. The only answer is that the FDS made the assumption themselves. That "Light" from Jehovah is not necessarily from Jehovah but from men.
*** g93 3/22 p.4 Why So Many False Alarms? ***
Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’TheWatchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: "We have not the gift of prophecy." (January 1883, page 425) "Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible." (December 15, 1896, page 306) TheWatchtower has also said that the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit "does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine TheWatchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes." (May 15, 1947, page 157) "TheWatchtower does not claim to be inspired in its utterances, nor is it dogmatic." (August 15, 1950, page 263) "The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)"—February 15, 1981, page 19.
Thus we never said we speak in Jehovahs name or that we are prophets - but we are only guided by HS, not inspired... (whatever that means??) but see below....
*** w79 9/1 pp. 29-30 pars. 28-29 The Royal "Shepherd" of Bible Prophecy ***Unlike the clergy class, those of the Jeremiah class have been sent by Jehovah to speak in his name. Nevertheless, the clergy prophets also claim to speak in his name and, hence, to tell the Bible truth. In this way Christendom’s religious leaders really ‘steal’ away the force and effect of the calamitous message proclaimed by the Jeremiah class. True, the Jeremiah class back up their message by quoting the words, "This is what Jehovah has said." But the clergy try to add weight and the ring of truth to what they preach by affixing the words, "An utterance!" Seemingly they speak from God. So they may use a Bible text as a pretext for preaching about politics or even war propaganda. Yet Jehovah is against such clergy prophets whom he did not send forth from his intimate group and who ‘steal’ words from his Bible in order to make a wrong application of them.—Jer. 23:30, 31.
29 How will Jehovah show that such clergy prophets are fakes? By not fulfilling what they announce to be "an utterance!" or what they presume to speak in his name. He does not back up their falsehood. "‘Here I am against the prophets of false dreams,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘who relate them and cause my people to wander about [going astray] because of their falsehoods and because of their boasting.’ ‘But I myself did not send them or command them. So they will by no means benefit this people,’ is the utterance of Jehovah."
so in fact the WTS HAS presumed to speak in Jehovahs name. But this would make them false prophets! Well what would a christian who knew his bible do way back in 1914 or 1925 after Russels and Rutherfords prophecies failed?
(Deuteronomy
18:20-22)20 "‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him. . .(1
John4:1-3) . . .Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.So regardless of what the WTS says about how "eager" or "zealous" they were in the past, AT THAT TIME - any christian would have shunned the WTS and rightly so as they would have been obeying Christ to do so.
So ultimately.... where is "Light" coming from? Is it from HS? Well HS doesnt lie or make mistakes so no it cant be. Does it come from men "reasoning" on the scriptures?
*** w95 5/15 p. 12 Flashes of Light in Apostolic Times ***
9 This time, it was not by means of an obvious miracle that those early Christians received the light that circumcision was no longer a requirement for Jehovah’s servants. Rather, they received that increased light by searching the Scriptures, looking to the holy spirit for guidance, and hearing the experiences of Peter and Paul regarding the conversion of uncircumcised Gentiles. (Acts 15:6-21) The decision was issued in a letter that read in part: “The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication.” (Acts 15:28, 29) The early Christians were thus set free from the command to practice circumcision and from the other requirements of the Mosaic Law. Hence, Paul could tell the Galatian Christians: “For such freedom Christ set us free.”—Galatians 5:1.According to the WTS "light" comes from reading the scriptures - not from a miracle (divine utterances? Holy Spirit? - avoided saying it outright) yes the WTS says that light is not from HS.
The fact of all this is that the generation has changed 5 times because it is not light from Jehovah. It is fallible men trying to interpret the bible. It is fleshly reasoning. All of their teachings are fleshly reasoning. Where does HS & Light fit in anymore? Not sure really. The WTS doesnt refer to "light" anymore, they just let the WT conducters do it of their own merrit. if they were wrong before, how do we know they arent wrong now? What else are they wrong about? Shunning? Blood? etc....IF THEY DONT HAVE LIGHT, THEN WHAT DO THEY HAVE? HOW ARE THEY ANY DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER CHURCH/RELIGION? HOW ARE THEY SPECIAL IF THEY DO NOT RECEIVE DIVINE DIRECTION? HOW DO THEY MAKE SUCH COLOSSAL MISTAKES SPANNING CENTURIES IF THEY ARE GUIDED BY HS?
THE IRRISTABLE CONCLUSION IS THAT THEY ARE ONLY MEN GUESSING AT THE FUTURE LIKE ANY OTHER MAN BUT TEACHING AND SPEAKING WITH THE AUTHORITY OF GOD - THUS THEY ARE FALSE PROPHETS - CHRISTIANS ARE COMMANDED TO REMOVE THEMSELVES FROM FALSE PROPHETS AND YOU ARE JUST DOING WHAT JEHOVAH TOLD YOU TO DO IN THE BIBLE. -
yknot
Still_in74 has some wonderful points.....
In my opinion it is best to start with establishing which publication takes precedent...... WTS pubs or the Bible.
Being like the Bereans was not suppose to stop the minute a person is dunked. If the Israelites managed to fall from God's grace shortly after leaving Egypt ...... trust me 9 men in NY, who are farther away from 'pefection'....will falter far worse!
