Generation change & Michael/Jesus - wife's bible study

by insearchoftruth 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Gordy
    Gordy

    Needless to say, there is NO SCRIPTURE that they can point to. Instead, they use alot of presumption and tortured reasoning to arrive at their conclusions. They will use primarily the Scripture in 1 Thess. 4:16, where it says....

    "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

    From this verse, they say that Christ will shout with the archangel's voice, so therefore, He must be the archangel. There are a number of things to point out here....

    First, it does not say that Jesus is the One Who is doing the shouting. It says He will descend WITH a shout. The word "with" means "accompanied by". For example...."I went to the store WITH my wife." Does that mean that I am the same person as my wife? No. It means that she accompanied me to the store. In fact, there are some verses that clearly say that, when Jesus comes, all of the angels will be coming WITH Him.

    Check out the following verses: Matthew 25:31, Mark 8:38. It makes sense that the arrival and coming of a King would be announced by a loyal subject, which in this case, will be Michael the Archangel. There will be a shout from Michael, and then the blowing of the trumpet to announce the King's arrival in the rapture.

    Suffice it to say, there is nothing in 1 Thess. 4:16 that states that Michael and Jesus are the same Person.

    Secondly, the JWs only seem to read the part of 1 Thess. 4:16 that suits their purpose. If we read the whole verse, and apply their logic, then we have proof that Jesus is also God, for the very next statement says that Jesus comes "WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD". Now, if we use JW reasoning, and say that Jesus' coming WITH the voice of the archangel means that He IS the archangel, then we must also conclude that Jesus' coming WITH the trump of God means that He is God. Of course, JWs would strongly disagree, but if their logic is to be used, then they must be consistent and interpret the whole verse the same way.

    Of course, it is plain that both the voice of the archangel and the blowing of the trumpet are simply announcements of Christ's coming, and neither are done by Christ Himself.

    Also, the JWs make some strange connections from the book of Revelation, primarily chapter 12, where Michael is said to have angels under His command.

    "And there was war in heaven: Michael and HIS ANGELS fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels:"

    Then, the JWs find other verses that say that Jesus has angels under His command, and arrive at the conclusion that, because they both are said to have angels under their command, then they must be the same Person. I am sure that you can see the ridiculous nature of that logic. A military commander may have soldiers under his command, and he can rightly call them "his soldiers". However, the President of the United States is the "Commander in Chief" of the military, and therefore, he can also refer to them as "his soldiers". This does NOT mean that the military commander and the President are the same individual.

    I believe any sane person can see the shallow nature of the Watchtower reasoning. The fact is: THEY DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT THEY CAN POINT TO, SAYING CLEARLY THAT JESUS CHRIST IS MICHAEL. Do not let the JWs get away from this fact, but press them on it.

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    Thanks Gordy, Blondie, Mary, Possible San.....

    I do plan on pressing the gentleman on this issue, when the chance arises, I am really hoping that he presents the arguement from Thessalonians, because if the first is so sensible that Jesus is Michael, then by that same logic wouldn't Jesus be God (Jehovah) and then Michael be God (Jehovah)....

    Would not state all these things, do not want to appear to belittle the couple, but want to just point out flawed reasoning techniques that are used.

    The wife has already asked me that if something makes sense, shouldn't I just accept it?

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    sorry, had to leave quickly, so did not finish. My wife and the study sister have asked me to just accept things that make sense, well I said I do not accept things til I look into them. I wonder if they would also be willing to just accept things that make sense??

  • Anti-Christ
    Anti-Christ

    After that, they'll probably try switching gears to another topic. DON'T LET THEM. This is a typical tactic of the Witnesses (I'm sure we all did it at one time or another). They switch from one topic to another so that you go round and round and nothing ever gets settled. Make them stay on topic.

    This is an important point. keep it simple. An other way you can piss them off is ask for proof when they clearly speculate on something.

    sorry, had to leave quickly, so did not finish. My wife and the study sister have asked me to just accept things that make sense, well I said I do not accept things til I look into them. I wonder if they would also be willing to just accept things that make sense??

    Yea, that's the problem what they teach does not make sense, you should tell them that evolution makes a lot of sense, why don't they accept that?

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    I know they want sooooo bad to get to Trinity....the po is supposed to be getting me the list of references....but from what I understand he will be unable to provide....at least there are lots of folks who have posted them.

    As for Michael/Jesus, just interested in presenting the fallacy of thier reasoning, at least how one can see how illogical some of their 'proofs' are....and this may get her thinking a bit.

    I noticed since I sat with my wife and the sister last Wednesday, there has been very little jw interest, and the bible was opened to the 'proof' verse on the generation change....I think it has her thinking, change, change, change!

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    Hi! Mr. insearchoftruth,

    I am a ex-Jehovah's Witnesses in Japan.
    I was Jehovah's Witnesses between quarter of a century.
    What I can say from my experience, the creed of Jehovah's Witnesses does not make people happy.

    I think that it is a time of your fighting now in order that you may regain your wife.

    the po is supposed to be getting me the list of references....but from what I understand he will be unable to provide....

    Yeah,
    They do not confirm whether it is true that the Governing Body has stated.
    They only swallow everything what is written in their publication.

    It is very different from what the Bible teaches.
    http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/ac/chapter_017.htm#bk11

  • Mary
    Mary
    I know they want sooooo bad to get to Trinity....the po is supposed to be getting me the list of references....but from what I understand he will be unable to provide....at least there are lots of folks who have posted them.

    That's probably the last subject you should talk with them on (the Trinity), simply because that is one of the few doctrines they have which I tend to agree with(although their translation of John 1:1 and a few other scriptures leaves alot to be desired). My own opinion is that you should try and stay on the subjects where you have overwhelming evidence to show that their reasoning is flawed. "This generation", the blood issue, false prophecy & date setting.....there are so many other areas to concentrate on that I wouldn't even bother talking about the trinity.....Just my two cents worth.

  • insearchoftruth
    insearchoftruth

    Thanks for your two cents Mary, worth a lot to me!!! Doing my best to stay away from Trinity!!

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit