Generation change & Michael/Jesus - wife's bible study

by insearchoftruth 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  insearchoftruth

  Sat in on my wife's bible study tonight, next week the husband of her study sister is coming with her, he is actually the presiding overseer of the congregation.
  
  Tried to get me to talk about trinity next week, but the topics will be either generation or Michael.
  
  The sister pointed to the statement in Matthew on generation, I believe it was Matthew 24:14 and said that since Jesus was talking to his disciples, that equates to the anointed. I asked about the heavenly calling being reopened and she said that is not the case, she said that all that is going on is replacements for those of the remnant who have gone astray.
  
  Tonight the discussion was on paradise earth, I had no idea she was going to be studying until I got home, so was not properly prepared, will get a list of the scriptures later, we played bible hopscotch and was never given the time to read in context.....
  
  I believe we will not be 'studying' till next Wednesday, at least that is my intent, so I have some preparation time.
  
  I also think I will be getting copies of the Revelation book (oh joy), Proclaimers and I forget the other, I guess I asked her way too many questions.
  
  One thing I asked her is if paradise earth as a phrase appears in the bible, she flipped to the concordance took a look at a couple of places....I told her no rush, take your time and get me an answer.
  
  I need to be able to get myself in the mindset to be able to ask questions without being overly aggressive, my wife has already let them know I enjoy and am good at research....so at least if I am prepared, should not seem all that terribly bizzare, just can not come in with too large of a stack of apostate literature <grin>
  
  Thanks again for all of your help on this, it has been great!!!

  Would like to make the following weeks discussion Blood!!!
• 

  bennyk

  The sister pointed to the statement in Matthew on generation, I believe it was Matthew 24:14 and said that since Jesus was talking to his disciples, that equates to the anointed.

  And just how does "disciples" equate to "anointed" (?) -- the "Anointed" were not in existence when the words were spoken (pre-Pentecost), and thus could scarcely be the "this generation" about which Jesus spoke... And, in fact, the WatchTower Society specifically precluded their current understanding in the "Question from Readers" back in November 1995:

  *** w95 11/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers
  

  At 1 Peter 2:9, the “King James Version” calls anointed Christians “a chosen generation.” Should this affect our view of Jesus’ use of “generation” recorded at Matthew 24:34?

  [...]
  

  As those footnotes indicate, ge´nos is appropriately translated by the English word “race,” as commonly found in English versions.

  At 1 Peter 2:9, Peter applied the prophecy found at Isaiah 61:6 to anointed Christians with the heavenly hope. These are drawn from many nations and tribes, but natural backgrounds are put behind them as they become part of the nation of spiritual Israel. (Romans 10:12; Galatians 3:28, 29; 6:16; Revelation 5:9, 10)
  Peter identified them as becoming, in a spiritual sense, a distinct group—“a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.”

  But in the Greek text of Jesus’ words found at Matthew 24:34, we find the word ge·ne·a´. It is widely recognized that Jesus was referring, not to any “race” of people, but to the people living at a certain period of time.

  [...]

  As discussed on pages 10 to 15, Jesus condemned the generation of Jews of his time, his contemporaries who rejected him. (Luke 9:41; 11:32; 17:25)
  He often used qualifiers such as “wicked and adulterous,” “faithless and twisted,” and “adulterous and sinful” in describing that generation. (Matthew 12:39; 17:17; Mark 8:38)
  When Jesus used “generation” for the last time, he was on the Mount of Olives with four apostles. (Mark 13:3)
  Those men, who were not yet anointed with spirit nor part of a Christian congregation, certainly did not constitute either a “generation” or a race of people.
  They were, though, very familiar with Jesus’ use of the term “generation” in referring to his contemporaries.
  So they logically would understand what he had in mind when he mentioned “this generation” for the last time. The apostle Peter, who was present, thereafter urged Jews: “Get saved from this crooked generation.”—Acts 2:40.

  [...]

  Yes, in the initial fulfillment, “this generation” evidently meant the same as it did at other times—the contemporaneous generation of unbelieving Jews. That “generation” would not pass away without experiencing what Jesus foretold.
  As Williamson commented, this proved true in the decades leading up to Jerusalem’s destruction, as an eyewitness historian, Josephus, described.
  In the second or larger fulfillment, “this generation” would logically also be the contemporaneous people.

  And in 1997:

  *** w97 6/1 28 Questions From Readers ***

  Many scriptures confirm that Jesus did not use “generation” with regard to some small or distinct group, meaning only the Jewish leaders or only his loyal disciples.

  And in 1999:

  *** w99 5/1 10-12 "These Things Must Take Place" ***
  So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of “this generation,” he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history; nor did he mean his followers, even though they were “a chosen race.” (1 Peter 2:9) Neither was Jesus saying that “this generation ” is a period of time.

  Perhaps she can give an explanation (?)

  *******************************************************************************

  I asked about the heavenly calling being reopened and she said that is not the case, she said that all that is going on is replacements for those of the remnant who have gone astray.

  
  

  The "Sister" needs to keep up with the blinking Light; perhaps she needs to re-read the "Questions from Readers" in the 01. May 2007 Watchtower.
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  uninformed

  Good job BennyK

  Holy spirit can't quite get it right.

  Would be good to to point out that it was said hundreds of times that the generation that saw the events of 1914 would NOT PASS AWAY before the end came.

  They changed that in 1995, effectively disconnecting 1914 from ANYTHING substantial.

  Look up a few dozen references on the old understanding, hand it to them, and then ask what the definition of a "false prophet" is......,

  (Deuteronomy 18:20-22) 20 "

  ‘However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die. 21 And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

  good luck

  Brant
• 

  Justitia Themis

  I asked about the heavenly calling being reopened and she said that is not the case, she said that all that is going on is replacements for those of the remnant who have gone astray.

  I don't have the most current CD-rom, but didn't the most recent question from readers address this issue? If I am not mistaken, I thought it specifically said that they are NOT replacements. Anyone have that information available?
• 

  Justitia Themis

  Here is the thread when the information was released, but page 31 of the Watchtower doesn't appear now.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/130668/2319598/post.ashx#2319598
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  possible-san

  If the information and the link which I showed are useful to you, I will think that I am glad.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/162748/1.ashx

  And please also look at the picture of my bulletin board.
  
  The Watch Tower of Feb 15th, 1927, p. 62
  And of Feb 15th, 2008, pp. 21-25
  http://xbbs.knacks.biz/possible01/p9#a6
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  insearchoftruth

  Thanks for the assistance so far, and thanks for the links to the previous threads, all much appreciated!!!

  Here are the scriptures used:

  Psalm 37: 9-11 and 29
  Psalm 104:5
  Proverbs 2:22
  2 Peter 3:10 as compared with Genesis 1:11 and 9:11

  I believe she switched to the following when asking if we are in the time of the end:
  Daniel 2:44
  Matthew 24: 3 - 6 (I think) and 14
  2 Timothy 3:15

  Then she mentioned John 17:3 to see if I would see that Jesus and God are not one (I answered that if one would look at only that one verse, one may come to that conclusion, but one needs to read the Bible for what it says, not just look at individual verses).

  I asked about the generation change and she referred to Matthew 24:34 to show why the change was made to be anointed only, since at that time Jesus was speaking to the disciples, I also asked about the changing of the calling of the anointed, I was amazed she was not aware of the change?!?!? And her husband is a PO????

  I was also taken back that she asked my wife for permission to not change into a skirt to speak with us about the "Bible". That is so messed up in my mind!!
• 

  Deputy Dog

  insearchoftruth

  Some good questions about Michael/Jesus.

  Is Jesus part angel, part man? (They always say he was just a man.)

  Then ask them about where Jesus says:

  John 6:51

  I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world."

  Ask: What came down from heaven? What ever their response ask: If Jesus is a man with the...(their response) of an angel?

  I've never heard of a good answer. I believe this opens their thinking about Jesus as having a dual nature.
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  possible-san

  Hi! insearchoftruth,

  Since I can speak only Japanese, English is poor at me.
  Please allow, when I use strange English.

  Then she mentioned John 17:3 to see if I would see that Jesus and God are not one

  Jehovah's Witnesses do not know the "Trinity" correctly.
  And they attack "what is not the Trinity".

  The Athanasian Creed is expressed as follows.

  4. Neither confounding the Persons: nor dividing the Substance [Essence].
  
  http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.iv.i.iv.html

  This meaning is "Jehovah (the Father) and Christ (the Son) are two separate persons".
  
  This is a true meaning of the "Trinity".
  But, the Governing Body does not teach their believers this meaning correctly.
  And they attack the "Sabellianism" etc...
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabellianism

  If people understand the exact meaning of the "Trinity",
  the "Trinity" cannot be attacked in the theory of Jehovah's Witnesses.
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  insearchoftruth

  Thanks all, some pretty good information on generation, but what about Michael/Jesus.

  My biggest refuting point is the first chapter of Hebrews where Jesus is compared as so much better than an angel.....any other suggestions?