Book Club, August 08, 1984 by George Orwell (page 2)

TheSilence

I want very much to discuss #15, and I expect it won't be what you expect

Then please, sir, feel free to do so ;)

Jackie

JeffT

Ahem, (side note: my degree is in English/History if I start sounding like Mr. Hand in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" throw something at me).

"1984" was never intended to be about the future. It was a parable about the present (well, the present when he wrote it). The book was publish in 1948 and the title/time frame was derived by reversing the digits. Too much of what he was trying to tell us gets lost when people start talking about how he was "predicting the future."

In that light comparisons to the Borg are very apt. The denizens of this board do not need to go to the future to have lived in a world like "1984." The deliberatly confusing language, the "memory hole," and the sexual regulation are all things we have direct experience with. I think Huxley was telling his readers to look at what is going on now (then), not warning of future problems. This also transcends any attempt to pin the problem on left/right dichotomies. ANY organization that steals your ability to think for yourself is tampering with your humanity, your soul.

TheSilence

So I've just finished the book. I'm not much on political viewpoints, which is what I felt most of the book was about, so my thoughts and opinions will probably not be very apt or interesting. Here goes, anyway ;)

Imagine yourself as Winston Smith at the beginning of 1984. What would you do to undermine The Party? Knowing what you know now, how would you extricate yourself from the fate that awaits you?

I found myself thinking through the entire first half of the book, until such time as Winston was captured, that he ought to just lose himself within the proles, become one of them. Yes, they were downtrodden, but they had the freedom of thought and communication he sought, they had the life that was not *constantly* monitored. Indeed, The Book states of them, "They can be granted intellectual liberty because they have no intellect." Not only that, but he saw them as the only hope of overcoming The Party. I wanted to see him lose himself in the proles with Julia and inspire the masses to the frenzy he knew it would take to overthrow The Party.

In that light comparisons to the Borg are very apt. The denizens of this board do not need to go to the future to have lived in a world like "1984." The deliberatly confusing language, the "memory hole," and the sexual regulation are all things we have direct experience with.

I think one can certainly make comparissons with the Witnesses on many levels, but such pervasive mind control on such a wide scale seems difficult for me to swallow. One would think that, having been raised in an organization millions strong and witnessing such mind control, it wouldn't be difficult for me to see. I think what makes it unrealistic for me is that it wasn't a small section of society. There is something to be said for,

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Abraham Lincoln

I just find it difficult to believe that an entire society which comprises one third of the earth (and if The Book is to be believed all of the earth since all three societies had similar beliefs) could be duped to such an extent. What makes it somewhat more believable to me is Julia's character. She grew up in it, she plays the part, but she doesn't necessarily buy into it. What I also found interesting about her character was how when they would discuss the political aspects of The Party rather than the sexual aspects she would grow bored and/or fall asleep. This illuminates the power of crimestop which is defined in The Book as follows:

Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, or misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.

Does it tell us that our physical desires are more powerful than intellectual thought that Julia unconsciously reverted to crimestop in intellectual pursuits but overcame all aversions to sexual pursuits? That she couldn't remember the enemy changing four years earlier but could recount her sexual history in vivid detail for Winston? The concept of crimestop, and my perceived downfalls of it, was one aspect I could completely understand and compare to the Witnesses.

Jackie

TheSilence

In the afterword, the commentator describes 1984 as "a warning." Indeed, throughout the text, Orwell plants both subtle and overt warnings to the reader. What do you think are some of the larger issues at hand here?

I think the largest issue which is addressed was brilliantly illuminated in a single sentence by JeffT:

ANY organization that steals your ability to think for yourself is tampering with your humanity, your soul.

Jackie

jakmarx

A really good book a must read!!

Read brave new world !! its also great

TheSilence

Read brave new world !! its also great

Do you have the author's name? If so I'll add it to the list of suggested books.

Thanks,

Jackie

TheSilence

Is it this book...

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Brave-New-World/Aldous-Huxley/e/9780060850524/?itm=1

by Aldous Huxley?

Jackie

jakmarx

Sorry yeh,

its Brave New World by Aldous Huxley

Touches on some really interesting themes.

TheSilence

its Brave New World by Aldous Huxley

It's been added.

Jackie

TheSilence

Describe the role that O'Brien plays in Winston's life. Why do you think that initially, Winston is drawn to O'Brien? Why does he implicitly trust him, despite the enormous dangers involved?

Winston trusts O'Brien despite the enormous dangers involved because he *wants* to trust him. Winston wants to believe that the Brotherhood is out there, he needs to believe there is a concerted resistance to The Party and he wants to be a part of it. Hope is what causes Winston to take that leap of faith. And isn't hope just another mark of our humanity? Once Winston is captured a large part of the indoctrination is stamping out his hope alongside taking away his ability to think for himself. O'Brien continually pushes the theme that The Party will never be brought down, will never come to an end.

Jackie

Book Club, August 08, 1984 by George Orwell

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