Blind salamanders - any creationists up to a challenge? (page 2)

Satanus

'economy, adaptation, and acclimatization'

The basic process of evolution.

S

hamilcarr

Okay. You, and the author of this article have to understand that some creationists back the idea of "micro-evolution" as opposed to "macro-evolution".

Micro- and macroevolution are often misused, probably due to a misunderstanding of the terms.

They don't describe different processes, the only difference between both terms is ... TIME!

While microevolution occurs over a few generations, macroevolution requires thousands of generations.

No qualitative difference, but a quantitative.

Regardless of how some use the terms, do you understand my use of the terms?

Time is besides the point, regarding the issues I brought up.

This is why I brought up testing this stuff through computer models...where billions of iterations can be completed in short order.

Satanus

Actually, what creationists call microevolution has taken place at a much higher rate than the evolution that scientists work in. The micros claim that the speciation from a few family types took place within thousands of yrs, something evolutionary scientists claim took much longer. Therefore, creationist microevolutionists are stronger evolutionists than are those scientists.

S

hamilcarr

Regardless of how some use the terms, do you understand my use of the terms?

Time is besides the point, regarding the issues I brought up.

This is why I brought up testing this stuff through computer models...where billions of iterations can be completed in short order.

Your analogy is incorrect because there's no qualitative difference between micro and macro. That's what my previous post dealt with. Besides, computer models are preprogrammed, which restricts their potential for variation. Evolution is a huge self-organizing system, which, at the moment, can't be simulated by any modern human device.

Sirona

It astounds me that people can suggest that this is not evolution!

If you have a salamander who adapts to the environment by losing its sight....then it adapts again due to some other environmental issue....then adapts again....all of these changes over a long long time will result in something which is nothing like a salamander! It will be classed as a different species eventually.

Sirona

nvrgnbk

They don't describe different processes, the only difference between both terms is ... TIME!

Nicely put.

M.J.

:Your analogy is incorrect because there's no qualitative difference between micro and macro.

I guess you didn't take time to understand the distinction I made between the two. I know YOU don't make a distinction, but at least take the time to understand the distinction that I make.

:Evolution is a huge self-organizing system, which, at the moment, can't be simulated by any modern human device.

Fair enough assertion...but I personally see no reason why a computer cannot at least demonstrate in principle that a process so fundamental to macro-evolution is even possible (remember that evolution occurs via genetic coded instructions). Perhaps it is. But until I see experimental evidence I won't put my blind faith in it ;)

Someone might end up winning the $100,000 challenge on this and I'll gladly change my stance.

I'll restate my position on micro and macro:

The difference is this:

Micro evolution is the natural optimization of the parameters of EXISTING genetic functions...otherwise known as natural selection.

Macro evolution would be the spontaneous generation of entirely new functions.

"The evolutionary potential of any system based on encoded instructions is forever limited to that provided by the available instructions. If the system is closed to additional instructions, true innovations will not evolve and the limit will be reached."

BurnTheShips

They descended Mount Improbable and slithered down the Hillary Step. Upon crossing that threshold, they became blind for life.

BTS

james_woods

I always thought that it was sort of a bummer that although the snakes lost their legs over talking the trash to lady Eve, there are also earthworms, legless lizards, and legless salamanders that never did do a damn thing wrong.

Blind salamanders - any creationists up to a challenge?

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