A Socialist defends Americans

by Rex B13 17 Replies latest jw friends

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  Commie Chris

  Expat: I was hoping to pick a fight with you - you're much more interesting than Rex.

  Jelly: I am certainly not a social democrat by any stretch. I am against big government. I believe a fair, free, just society should be based on free, voluntary association. The present economy of the U.S., Canada and Europe is dominated by state (tax-payer) subsidized giant multi-national corporations and state-owned industries. This system should be replaced with one based on worker-owned co-operatives and small to medium sized private enterprise. This is a vision of a democratic society which is not practised by the European social democrats, despite what they sometimes preach.
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  Rex B13

  Hey Extra-Brit,
  In case you missed it, the Cultural Revolution is China was a blueprint rendition of Karl Marx main ideas enforced with the power of the state.
  The other states mentioned seem to fall in step with communist theory but it doesn't work in practice; workers become lazy and are supported by state welfare, as long as they don't get sent to the gulag, that is!
  Islamic countries are almost all despotic kingdoms or theonomies that espouse Islamic law. Mohammed was terrorist and his loyalist followers today mimic him and his 'apostles', who killed each other to replace him!
  In either situation, you and a raft of others here would not have your oh, so valuable, 'free speech'.

  Ironic, isn't it, that the greatest freedoms mankind have ever had are centered in countries long dominated by nominal Christians? Yes, Christians are imperfect and beset with ills and sin, no better than anyone else but usually on the road to becoming better....if, they have truly accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour.
  It's not where we are at now; it's where we began.
  BTW, why do you personally attack me instead of considering the article? Are you really that rabidly against people who take a firm stand on their principles?

  Rex
• 

  Seeker

  Ironic, isn't it, that the greatest freedoms mankind have ever had are centered in countries long dominated by nominal Christians?

  Only because those nations haven't been actually Christian in power, or else people like me would be lined up and shot.
• 

  expatbrit

  Sigh. Why is it religion and humour are mutually exclusive?

  Point one: I did not attack you, my post was clearly directed at the position you take in this area of thought. That was stated.

  Point two: In case you missed it, most of the atrocities commited by Christians were blueprint renditions of the book they follow, the bible.

  Point three: you said "the greatest freedoms mankind have ever had are centered in countries long dominated by nominal Christians". The most important word in that sentence is "nominal". It is the very nominality of those countries which has allowed freedoms such as the freedom of speech to develop. If these countries were fundamentalist Christian societies, there would be no freedom. A basic survey of history will reveal that as the power of religion declines, so freedom increases.

  Point four: I admire people who take a firm stand on their principles. I do not admire people who try to force their principles on others either through physical or emotional pressure.

  Expatbrit

  p.s. I'm not a communist either. In fact, I'm about as capitalist as they come, hence Commie Chris's relish at picking a fight!
• 

  jelly

  Commie Chris,

  Wonderful theory to bad it would never work. Communism is a beutiful Idea but a horrible government in practice.

  Jelly

  I know I misspelled a word to tired to fix it. sorry
• 

  Commie Chris

  Jelly: first of all, you still seem to be confusing your idea of "communism" with the kind of libertarian socialism that I am espousing. Again, I am opposed to coercive big government and my ideas have nothing in common with the authoritarian regimes of the former Soviet bloc, or any similar regimes. There is nothing "socialist" whatsoever about those states. I’d be happy to direct you to some literature if you are interested in learning more about libertarian socialism / anarchy.

  Secondly, what makes you think that a democratic economy (essentially based on worker-owned industry rather than capitalism) cannot work? In 1930s pre-fascist Spain anarchist ideas were very well known and practiced in large parts of that country. They were very successful until they were violently suppressed by the fascists and other parties who were threatened by the emergence of a truly democratic society. In the U.S. in the 19th century, worker-owned cooperatives were so efficient and successful that capitalist industries often could not compete with them. The state had to intervene with subsidies and anti-worker legislation to ensure that the capitalists prevailed over worker-owned industries. Today, although there is admittedly not a lot of empirical research in this area, the available research indicates that worker owned industries are generally more efficient than capitalist owned industries.

  In addition to the evidence that an economy based on anarchist / libertarian socialist principles would likely be materially more productive than the present state-supported capitalist economic system, it also seems to be in keeping with the fundamentals of human nature. Human history can be seen as a continual striving towards greater and greater freedom and away from coercive forms of authority. As I alluded to in my initial response to Rex in this threat, the U.S. and other capitalist countries have achieved greater individual civil liberty than in almost any society in human history. But there is clearly still a long way to go. Leaving aside for the moment the recent disturbing reactionary attacks by American governments on fundamental civil rights and liberties, people are still far from free economically. The freedom of most is to restricted to the freedom to attempt to sell their labour to a different capitalist or civil service employer. Either way, the vast majority are not in control of their economic lives – they are working for bosses who are not accountable to them. I believe that human nature will lead people inevitably to demand and obtain greater control over their economic lives just as they have demanded greater and greater control over their political lives. There are solid reasons to believe that capitalism is no more eternal than any system which preceded it. It is riddled with internal contradictions which virtually ensure its’ eventual demise. The overall trend of human history indicates that it will inevitably be replaced by a system which delivers greater freedom, wealth and equality.
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  Rex B13

  Seeker,
  That last post was absolutely stupid and irresponsible. You are still in the 'slander all other faiths' mode of the Watchtower.
  Rex
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  Seeker

  No it wasn't, Rex. Throughout history, any time Christians took control of a nation, people like me were in danger of being put to death.

  Given the level of hate I have experienced at the hands of Christians in recent years, I have little doubt that if they had the power, they would try to kill me.