To: Rev B / Trinity vs Salvation

Amazing

Hi Rev B: You stated on my other thread that belief in the Trinity is necessary for salvation in Christendom. Not so.

I can go into almost any church and say that I am Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior, and will be accepted as such, without any comment or need to discuss the Trinity. I can even say that I don't accept the Trinity, or literal Hellfire, etc., and will still be accepted.

Where the difference is, if I try to join that specific church as an official member with voting rights on church business, or hold an office of Deacon, Elder, or Pastor, then a Christian Church will often require acceptance of the Trinity for membership ... but not for salvation. The same is often true of baptism, and a few other doctrines.

This important distinction is what often gets confused by JWs who swallow Watch Tower rhetoric. Even some members in Christendom or ex-JWs confused the difference between "membership" and "doctrine" and what is required for salvation. Being a Christian and accepted as such is one thing, being a member of a specific church is an entirely different matter. That is what makes a church a denomination and nothing more. Yes, there are some few exceptions, such as the Watch Tower Lying and Deceit Corporation or those like them, but contained in different packaging. - Amazing

barry

Being an Adventist I would like to comment. Adventists are for the most part Trinitarian but a group within the church are Arian [the same beleif as the witnesses only Jehovah is truely God] In order to join the church one would have to agree to the trinity but then if that person changed there mind they wouldnt be disfellowshipped I know of elders and many members who have this Arian beleif. Of course the hell beleif doesnt exist in the church the beleif is the same as the witnesses on that. I would personly like to see a more inclusive type of doctrinal statement with a simple acceptance of Jesus and the gospel as the only requirement for church membership.

Yerusalyim

REV B,

First of all, I do believe in the trinity. Having said that, the bible does NOT make belief in the trinity necessary for salvation. Paul lays out the gospel for us that must be believed. As long as we rely on the sacrafice of Jesus belief in the trinity is NOT necessary for salvation.

YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]

Rex B13

Hey Amazing,
Accepting someone for fellowship and discipling is great and we do welcome all who want to join in worship and praise. However, you seem to try to paint a picture that doctrine doesn't matter in most churches. Preaching the gospel accurately is an awesome responsibility and error is corrected, but not in the heavy-handed methods of cults like the Watchtower.
You put a little twist on things. The trinity as an abstract is not needed for salvation. It is often one of the 'rules of thumb' to detect pseudo-Christian sects and cults. No one has said explicitly, "No, you can't be saved" (though that may be the opinion of the writers in some of the links that I posted).
Let's get right down to it though. In John 8.23-24, Speaking to the pharisees, our Lord states, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM the one I claim to be (and many passages confirm that He was claiming to be God; equal to the Father) you will indeed die in your sins."
Later on, He gives them the old I AM again (8.58) and they try to stone Him for blasphemy because He still claimed to be God. Seven times Jesus directly identifies Himself as Yahweh. Many more times by inferrence and the Jews clearly expected the messiah to be deity. This is the correct context of the scripture.

Each one who chooses salvation should get this clear. If not, Jesus clearly states that you "will die in your sins" and in the N.T., 'death' signifies eternal damnation. So, do we deny His deity? That's up to you, but I am not going to say that its OK!
Now, when Jesus imparts the Holy Spirit the context again moves to deity. The H.S. is clearly a person, as is the Father and the Son. All three demonstrate the attributes of deity, thus we have tri-unity, or trinity. Any of the links that I provided you can clearly show you why this is scriptural.
Denying Christ or denying the Holy Spirit is clearly not a good idea if one claims to be in 'salvation'. I would rather err on the side of caution than advise people to accept anything less.
I think that one thing you do, Amazing, is consistently present a "new age" view of Bible teachings that does not line up with scripture, rather it "tickles the ears" instead of honestly confronting people with the gospel.
I hope that isn't too blunt. If we seek to teach, we have a greater responsibility and will be called to account if we "water down" the gospel.
Later,
Rex

Rev BII

Ok two things:

1. I don't beleive in the trinity

2. I dont find it essential to salvation as to whether you think Jesus is Jehovah or his son as all will get a resurrection and judgement as minumum.

3. I can't find that other thread I posted in before and you refer too, must be senile *lol*

4. Lots of christins find it extremely essential. To me what was needed was a sinfree man to pay the ransom, to them no other than God himself. One of the quotes they like is this:

John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (KJV)

John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (KJV)

Ofcause it bounds in confusion but to them a matter of heaven or hell. They are of babylon but influence people. To believe in the trinity is a matter of heaven or hell to many. But it's good to see that it's not so in all places, for the sake of peace.

God Bless

Rex B13

Rev Bill,

"Too me" has very little to do with it. Sola Scritura is a good thing to remember, otherwise, you end up with a false gospel.
Rex

Rev BII

You are such a person I think of. Yes the trinity is a mystery, expecially that it contradicts Jesus own words it matter of whether he's just as strong or less compared to the father. Remember also that tells us to pray in his name, such being the mediator between God and man. Also, on earth he was man, otherwise he couldnt pay Adam's sin as Romans and other apostolic NT books describe he clearly did.

www.carm.org also proves that the teachings is essential in the eyes of the traditional church.

God Bless

Rev BII

Yes remember sola scripture dear friend, no churchfather writings, apokryfs or beliefs received from outside the church such as the trinity or the immortal soul. You should look to the OT instead.

However much satan wants people to believe it, there's no sola scripture in the traditional doctrines. Very missused words :-).

God Bless

Rev BII

BTW, under the forum 'beliefs', then 'identity of God', this is debated too.

Rex B13

....and you still have five links to go. None of your objections are not covered.

Here's a quiz for extra credit:
ASV Genesis 1:1-3
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

KJV John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

a) What three persons of the Godhead are conatined in these two scriptures.
b) Whom was God speaking to in Genesis 1.27 when He referred to Himself in the plural?
Have a nice day, Russellite.
Rex

To: Rev B / Trinity vs Salvation

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