The Long Road To Forgiveness

by BurnTheShips 49 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  trevor

  NanaR

  You quote me saying:

  If theoretically, say, god forgives us our sins because we believe in Jesus and then we change religions, the forgiveness is withdrawn.

  Then ask:

  On what basis do you make this statement? Adding: When God forgives us our sins, he does so completely and does not withdraw that forgiveness…and does not rule out the possibility that we can walk away from Him and His forgiveness (grace).

  Do you not see that if we can walk away from his forgiveness it is conditional.

  You say:

  God honours our free will.

  Clearly he does not. Because if we use our free will to walk away he cease to forgive and withdraws his offer of everlasting life. This is not honouring free will.

  Fortunately when I entered into the illogical world of Biblical theology I wisely used the word ‘theoretically.’
• 

  hillary_step

  Rapunzel,

  I think Burn The Ships is right and you are trying to imbue into this womens actions motives that we could not possibly determine with such little evidence.

  What we do know is that it is not necessary to have 'Jesus as our Savior' in order to forgive and that this person seems to feel that in her case it was:

  In Christmas 1982, I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior. It was an amazing turning point in my life. God helped me to learn to forgive — the most difficult of all lessons. It didn't happen in a day and it wasn't easy. But I finally got it.

  Forgiveness even of the most henious crimes is not mutually exclusive to any religion, or lack of religion. I understand that you are a little irked that this womens message was actually a religious broadcast for the Christian Party, but the fact is that she directly attributes her new religion, to her ability to forgive. This does of course bring back some dismal memories of our own indoctrination, and let us face it there was nothing noble in proclaiming that we forgave because it 'bought joy to Jehovah's heart'. It was a forgiveness based on a false premise, which bears worrying similarities with this womens testimony.

  We have no idea why she turned her back on the religion of her youth though most of us have had a taste of that, but it is not surprising that she went the the source of her pain to reconcile herself with those who harmed her. This has nothing to do with Stockholm Syndrome, as someone mentioned, but all to do with issues of emotional restitution.

  Forgiveness might not have been easy or indeed honorable, if for example rather than a faceless, nameless pilot being her attacker, she had been raped by a soldier who then sought to justify his actions and showed no remorse.

  HS
• 

  beksbks

  Ok Burn old buddy old pal, I should have said, "in my experience" or even "fundamentalist C's"...............
• 

  SixofNine

  c'mon guys, squeeze harder! I'm sure we can parse at least 6 more pages out of the word "forgiveness". ;)

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  ps. Narkissos, your first response in this thread - best reply ever. Your wit gots soul,daddy-o.
• 

  hillary_step

  Six,

  I suppose some of the uneasiness I also feel when reading that story comes from the fact that both napalm and the sentence "I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior" are well-known products of the same national factory...

  Yeah....that was a gem. I make no apologies for repeating it. HS
• 

  NanaR

  NanaR

  You quote me saying:

  If theoretically, say, god forgives us our sins because we believe in Jesus and then we change religions, the forgiveness is withdrawn.

  Then ask:

  On what basis do you make this statement? Adding: When God forgives us our sins, he does so completely and does not withdraw that forgiveness…and does not rule out the possibility that we can walk away from Him and His forgiveness (grace).

  Do you not see that if we can walk away from his forgiveness it is conditional.

  You say:

  God honours our free will.

  Clearly he does not. Because if we use our free will to walk away he cease to forgive and withdraws his offer of everlasting life. This is not honouring free will.

  Trevor:

  I'm having difficulty with the formatting, but this is what I was trying to say (sorry if I was unclear).

  God forgives us. It is unconditional and He does not take it back. It is a gift.

  We can choose to accept His gift or throw it away. The fault is not His, but ours.

  Just to state what I said clearly. You have a right to your own opinion.

  Fortunately when I entered into the illogical world of Biblical theology I wisely used the word ‘theoretically.’

  Actually I would not apply the term "theoretically" to theology. A theory implies a hypothesis which can be verified by experimental means. The world of theology is the world of faith -- by definition not verifiable by natural means, since it has a supernatural origin. Nice talkin' to you ;-) Ruth
• 

  hamilcarr

  I'm sure we can parse at least 6 more pages out of the word "forgiveness". ;)

  Forgiveness, it's such a long road for christians.
• 

  Satanus

  Already mentioned.
  
  S
• 

  DanTheMan

  Rapunzel I usually enjoy your input on this board (you're one of the many people here who I feel very uneducated and inarticulate in comparison to) but in response to your posts on this thread, it seems to me that the tendency to proselytize is an inextricable aspect of virtually all religions, whether it's Buddhism, whose many current practitioners are all the progeny of ancestors who converted to the faith from something else, or Christianity of course, certainly one of the more aggressively convert-seeking religious groups in history.
  
  While I'm no Christian apologist, the idea of Christians calming the f down and realizing that theirs isn't the only way to salvation is to make a it into a simple moral philosophy whose adherents (if you would even call them that) don't believe that their beliefs are of any ultimate consequence. I guess what I'm saying is is that the belief that one's beliefs do have ultimate consequences is what makes religion, religion. You can't have one without the other.
  
  Dan, defective-product-of-the-napalm-and-holy-rollers-factory class
• 

  Narkissos

  Thanks 6o9 and HS...

  I do think Rapunzel made a lot of good points about the history of religious power struggle and its cultural consequences, but, as HS pointed out, relating one individual trajectory to such mass movements is always problematic.

  The only thing I'd like to add is that, besides napalm and Jesus, media coverage must have had a tremendous impact on her life. Because she was the girl on that picture, she was used in VN governmental communication, she remained exceptionally "visible" from and "meaningful" to the West, and she could be used by Evangelical communication as well as for humanitarian purposes. Those outstanding circumstances and opportunities may have played an important role in her path from one culture and religion to another as well.