I know that Dubs think that apostasy set in quickly in the early church, but I am not certain how early the think that it set in. Do they think that it was in the apostolic fathers, directly after them, legalization of Christianity, etc.?
When did apostasy set in?
by My Struggle 18 Replies latest watchtower bible
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moshe
Paul was the first apostate, but he was popular and successful, so that made it OK.
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zeroday
July 1879 when the first Watchtower was printed...
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oompa
They say it must have been very early....because the apostates were able to remove the name YHWH from every freakin copy of the christian scriptures that existed back then...including some that date to 125 AD........oompa....very thorough those early apostates...very
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blondie
(2 Timothy 2:16-18) 16 But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. 18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.
(1Timothy1:18-20) . . .This mandate I commit to you, child, Timothy, in accord with the predictions that led directly on to you, that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare; 19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside and have experienced shipwreck concerning [their] faith. 20 Hymenaeus and Alexander belong to these, and I have handed them over to Satan that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme.
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Timothy4:14-15) . . .Alexander the coppersmith did me many injuries—Jehovah will repay him according to his deeds— 15 and you too be on guard against him, for he resisted our words to an excessive degree.Evidently there were Christians in the first century that were teaching things perceived as contrary to basic Christian teachings.
Blondie
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My Struggle
(2 Timothy 2:16-18) 16 But shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, 17 and their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. 18 These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some .
(1 Timothy 1:18-20) . . .This mandate I commit to you, child, Timothy, in accord with the predictions that led directly on to you, that by these you may go on waging the fine warfare; 19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some have thrust aside and have experienced shipwreck concerning [their] faith. 20 Hymenaeus and Alexander belong to these, and I have handed them over to Satan that they may be taught by discipline not to blaspheme .
(2
Timothy 4:14-15) . . .Alexander the coppersmith did me many injuries—Jehovah will repay him according to his deeds— 15 and you too be on guard against him, for he resisted our words to an excessive degree.Evidently there were Christians in the first century that were teaching things perceived as contrary to basic Christian teachings.
Blondie
Yes I am very aware of the actual church history in regards to actual apostasy being present, the proto Gnostic, ebionites, nazoreans, all types of Jews from Hellenized beliefs to orthodox, etc. My question is more toward the society opinion of when apostasy set in. When I say "set in" I mean that the church was completely apostatised. As one person said they must commit to the apostasy being early if they were able to completely remove YHWH from all MSS. However, I have never seen anything in any of their publications that puts in kind of certainty as to when the apostasy fully took hold.
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oompa
I think the insight book comments on it...prob under either apostate or apostasy.......but am too lazy to check....pretty sure i read it there though......oompa
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jwfacts
It actually depends on what point they are trying to prove. They refer to 2nd century Christians when trying to prove they didn't use blood or get involved in politics or war, but then call them apostates when they taught things that disagree with Watchtower doctrine.
To show just how poor and contradictory Watchtower logic is, consider the Trinity and the cross. Regarding the Trinity they claim at times, such as in the Trininty brochure that the Ante Nicene Fathers did not believe the Trinity.
"Another fabrication, concocted centuries later, is the doctrine of the so-called holy Trinity…" Watchtower 2006 Dec 1 p.6
"THE ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ’s birth. What they taught is of interest. … Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter." Should You Believe in the Trinity? p.7
"However, this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the Trinity." Should You Believe in the Trinity? p.5
Yet at other times in contradiction to this they criticise them for being Trinitarian.
"As Tertullian erroneously sought to prove the divinity of Jesus by means of another theory, he coined the formula "one substance in three persons." Using this concept, he attempted to show that God, his Son, and the holy spirit were three distinct persons existing in one divine substance. Tertullian thus became the first to apply the Latin form of the word "trinity" to the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit." Watchtower 2002 May 15 p.31
Likewise with the cross, the following quote says it was not till the 4th century.
"Not until the fourth century C.E. did the cross begin coming into noticeable use among professed Christians. The one primarily responsible for this development was Emperor Constantine, a sun worshiper who is said to have accepted Christianity years before submitting to baptism while on his deathbed." Awake! 1972 Nov 8 p.27
Yet this other quote says it 2nd century Christians used a cross.
"But do not writers early in the Common Era claim that Jesus died on a cross? For example, Justin Martyr (114-167 C.E.) described in this way what he believed to be the type of stake upon which Jesus died: "For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn." This indicates that Justin himself believed that Jesus died on a cross." Awake! 1976 Nov 22 p.27:
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StAnn
Somewhere recently I read in a WTS publication that "apostasy" set in immediately after the original apostles died. It may be in the new book, not sure, I've read too many scans and pdf files this past week to keep it all straight.
If you asked the Bible Students, they'd probably say that apostasy set in after Russell died and old "Judge" Rutherford wrested control of the organization.
StAnn
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AnneB
I have never seen anything in any of their publications that puts in kind of certainty as to when the apostasy fully took hold.
According to JW's there have always been members of the Annointed on the earth..so there were always at least a few faithful Christians, those with correct understandings.