BTS.."Hillary_Step,Lied,Juked and Jived"..
..???..LOL!!..Hillary _Step is one of the most honest,straight shooters we have on this board..............................Hillary_Step..Good afternoon my friend..I do see your point about playing the war hero card..It dosen`t necessarily make you Qualified for the Oval Office........I like McCain..But..If I were a USA Citizen,I`d vote Obama..................
...OUTLAW
Does Wearing Your Nations Uniform Automatically Ensure a High Moral Ground?
by hillary_step 45 Replies latest jw friends
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OUTLAW
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SixofNine
People have different (and more often than not, low) standards for the term "hero". I think the following contributes perspective to the reality of an America that cheer-leads war and soldiers, but doesn't want reminders of (or bills due related to) the true extent of the destruction and sacrifice.
David Cook is in PEOPLE magazine; Tomas Young is in ICU
Both young men are from Kansas City.
David won American Idol.
Tomas was injured in Iraq.
Our local 'media' is now referring to David as a "local hero". Tens of thousands of Kansas Citians swarmed to the glitzy new downtown entertainment district to watch David win American Idol. A few hundred went to the one theater in this metro area that showed Body of War, a film about Tomas, in the two weeks it played here. Anyone who wants to see it now is out of luck since no theaters are showing it here in Tomas's home town.
Everyone who isn't asleep in this metro area knows who David Cook is. The nurses in the hospital who are taking care of Tomas had never heard of him.
Why is it heroic to stand on a stage and sing? I don't mean to diminish David's accomplishments. I am sure he spent years perfecting his craft and worked hard to become an American Idol. Tomas just signed a recruitment form on September 13, 2001 because he wanted to go after the evil doers who attacked us on 9/11.
Who is the real hero?Six's note: I just came across this on a blog; I don't know enough yet about Tomas to have an opinion about his heroism, but I do have a strong opinion on the way America uses it's young men to feed her patriotic ego and to feel safe (not actually be safe), then tosses them aside like used kleenex.
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Fadeout
H_S:
You seem to agree that a person who fights for his country, for whatever reason, is automatically ensured a high moral ground for doing so.
Your thread title is about wearing the uniform. Wearing the uniform simply means you've taken the vow. A record of personal sacrifice living up to that vow is another matter enitrely.
I'll tell you what ensures a "high moral ground" IMO: Living by one's own priciples and respecting others who live by theirs.
If a person determines that, in the interests of the people of his city, he will put his own life on the line and become a firefighter, and he then does his job without making moral judgments, putting out fires and rescuing victims in houses, churches, porn shops, yes, I think that he has the moral high ground respecting his service to his city in his chosen profession, which may or may not have anything at all do to with the morality of his choices in any other aspect of life.
Now an observer may criticize and judge the firefighter for going on the call to the burning church, it being part of "satan's organization," or may criticize him for saving the proprietor of the porn shop. This observer may claim that the firefighter invited the judgment on himself when he made the decision to aid that immoral operation.
This same observer may also be unimpressed with the war record of a soldier who put his life on the line engaging in an "unjust" war.
Personally, regarding someone like McCain, while his war record should certainly not be the only or even the major factor in determining his fitness as national leader, I think it is clearly an objective factor in his favor that he has actually sacrificed for his principles and for his country to an extent inconceivable to most of us.
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Farkel
hs,
:Why do many of us, and this from all nations, feel that once a person dons a uniform and survives boot camp they are somehow automatically granted a morally superior position in society? Governments make mistakes, often huge mistakes, that should preclude this automatic assumption.
I'm not sure these two sentences relate to each other. Soldiers do what the government orders them to do. Or else. Surely you don't hold R&F soldiers accountable for what their Government tells them and that they were sworn to do.
I honor soldiers, especially volunteers like in America, with great respect, while despising many things their Government(s) do in the nane of war and otherwise. These soldiers have sworn to lay down their lives if necessary for (hopefully) the benefit and freedoms of their fellow citizens. It doesn't matter if they lay their lives down for bullshit reasons. They just follow orders.
I am of the Vietnam era. I was tried, convicted and sentenced for not joining in that war effort. I lost two precious years of my young life doing community service for 40 hours per week, 5 days a week with no pay for doing so. I remember how the returning Veterans were treated when they returned to this Country. It was one of the most shameful eras in our history. They were following orders as they swore to do, even though the orders came from idiotic and corrupt leaders.
Blame the leaders, not the soldiers.
And no, I don't think any soldier automatically holds a higher moral ground just by virtue of wearing the uniform. I never felt they did. That's like claiming a politician holds a higher moral ground by virtue of his position. Everyone but politicians themselves knows that is a big lie.
Farkel
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Narkissos
Never despair of the men under the uniform: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny
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buffalosrfree
I see a lot of differing opinions stated in these post but my question is, how many of you participated in an actual war, police action or whatever the hell you want to call it? I served over 20 + years, and yes part of that in vietnam in the army 101st Airborne, 1st Infantry Division, 4 th Infantry Division, and finally in a helicopter assualt squadron. I have an opinion also, and i would have literally gutted any individual who had the inclination to spit on me and wouldn't have thought no more about it than taking a crap in the nearest crapper. A lot of moralistic thoughts being uttered, did we deserve to be treated better than we were, probably, did we deserve to be spat upon? No, Were the hippies and the cowards deserving of respect? Only if they were honest in their admittance of being cowards. Anyone can think of a cause or reason not to answer to call to arms but that doesn't necessarily mean their reasoning is moral, fair, or even right. one of my good friends brothers was going to go to Canada to avoid the draft if his "lottery" number came up but it didn't and now he his differing thoughts on just what he would have really done, one will never know though that is so far in the past. I had told him if you really believe you would be doing the right thing then go, go to Canada if that is how you feel, but then don't come back here when the amnesty for those who left if given. Do what you say you really feel, go live there and enjoy your life there, but don't ever and i mean ever come back here!
Now 40+ years later, i still feel that I answered the call, i knew I was going to be drafted and then went and joined and went to Vietnam on my terms. I don't regret it and would do so again, the VC were animals and the North Vietnamese regulars were even more so at times. They preyed upon innocent civilians and were more than cruel to them, it was for reasons like that, that I felt that call and answered it.
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cognizant dissident
It's difficult to confer morality upon an entire group, whether they be soldiers, doctors, firefighters, policemen or politicans.
Individual soldiers may behave with honor under the most difficult of circumstances which they routinely face. We also know from history, that some have behaved with the most abominable immorality. This is also true of individuals belong to every one of the other groups mentioned.
So the answer is no, they do not have "high moral ground" just by virtue of wearing the uniform, and neither does any member of any society solely due to their position or job description.
No one has suggested that this means they deserve to spat upon with disrespect either. It just means they don't need to be automatically hailed as heroes just because they served or were injured or killed. In truth, most of us have no way of knowing when we see a soldier in uniform if he conducted himself honorably on the battlefield or despicably. To automatically hype sodiers up as heroes, just by virtue of their serving, is a function of the media that is self-serving (for ratings and politcal agendas). Hero stories are often contrived, embellished, and often bear little resemblance to the reality. This often distracts the patriotic public from the bigger picture, such as whether or not the war itself is moral.
IMO, we definitely have to separate the morality of the war itself with the morality of the soldiers. While, I grant that some wars seem more immoral than others, I would find it hard to find criteria for judging any war as an absolute moral exercise. I think war, in and of itself, is a failure of human morality. Still, the individual soldier has no control over when to declare a war, or on what terms to fight it. One can not have moral responsibility without any control. Once in a war, the individual soldier must struggle to maintain some sense of their own humanity and morality in what is an almost impossible situation. For those that can, they deserve respect. For those that believe they cannot and refuse to fight and suffer the consequences of prison, that doesn't make them cowards. Resisting the majoity viewpoint to maintain personal moral integrity takes great courage. They deserve respect also.
Being willing to fight and die for your beliefs takes courage but it is not always morally right. Terrorist are willing to die for their beliefs. They may be courageous but are they moral? JW's are willing to die and sacrifice their children too, in order to obey WTBTS stand on blood. That takes courage also, but is it a moral stand? The court of public opinion says no. Misguided courage and patriotism are not the same thing as morality or hereoism, in spite of the tendency of some to confuse them.
Cog
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Carlos_Helms
Not all men and women in all uniforms.
For a Marine, it's called "ethos."
But I can only reply from a Marine Corps perspective where "high moral ground" is a critical element of USMC core values. The ethos, the tradition, is what makes a Marine a Marine.
Carlos -
dinah
Carlos,
You took the high road. The few, the proud, and Carlos. It is much harder to get into the Marine Corps and the Air Force.
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BluesBrother
Blame the leaders, not the soldiers.
I would agree with that . High moral ground? It is in the interests of politicians and their supporting media to create this heroism for those who wear their uniform and go out to do a job that nobody in their right mind should want to do..
From what I read of history they have always created the image of the dashing soldier who walked tall and always had "God on his side".
In reality of course, some act with heroism - on both sides of any conflict , but they never credit that to those deemed by the politicians as "the enemy"
