Hello Frank (fjtoth), how are you? Thank you for your comments.
fjtoth said:
"To argue on the basis of one Greek word that Jesus must be honored "to the same degree" as the Father is to overlook how that Greek adverb is used elsewhere in the New Testament. Kathos does not literally mean "exactly as" or "to the same degree as." For example, it appears in Luke 22:29-30. There Jesus said, "just as [kathos] my Father has granted me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom." Jesus did not grant the disciples a position and authority equal to what his Father had granted him. He says it is "my kingdom," and any disciple who dares to make the claim in the sense that Jesus did is presumptuous indeed."
My Response:
I agree that the Greek word "kathos" can have more than one meaning, based on the context. That said, if you look up all of the passages which contain this word, you will find that in the majority of verses where it is used, "kathos" means "JUST LIKE" or "TO THE SAME DEGREE."
Thayer's Greek Dictionary gives the following definition of "kathos":
1) according as
1a) just as, even as
1b) in proportion as, in the degree that
2) since, seeing that, agreeably to the fact that
3) when, after that
(Joseph Henry Thayer, according to my research, was a Unitarian and did NOT believe in the Trinity or true Deity of Christ, just in case you were thinking he might be biased in favor of the Trinitarian viewpoint.)
Here is Strong's definition of "kathos":
Just (or inasmuch) as, that: - according to, (according, even) as, how, when.
So, "kathos" can mean "just like," "in the same way," or "to the same degree," according to the context.
At the bottom of this post, I have included a list of verses where you can look at how this word is used throughout the entire Gospel of John.
Also, look up that Greek word ["kathos," Strong's Number G2531] in the other Gospels and see how it was used.
Here is a famous Verse with that word in it: Luke 6:31 (KJV): And as [Gr: "kathos"] ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
This Greek word ("kathos") is used 27 times in the New Testament in the phrase "As it is written [in the Scriptures]."
fjtoth said:
"The word also appears several times in 1 Corinthians 10:6-9. Paul wrote that we should "not crave evil things as [kathos] they also craved." To insist that kathos means "exactly as" or "to the same degree as" implies that we must not go out in the desert and crave meat to eat, which is the past incident Paul was referring to. That is hardly the sense of what Paul meant."
My Response:
Could it not be that Paul was warning Christians against craving anything evil to the same degree that those unfaithful men and women did in the desert? Paul did not say "Do not crave MEAT just as they also craved," rather, Paul specifically said "Do not crave EVIL THINGS just as they also craved." Paul taught that Meat in itself is NOT an "evil thing," therefore, Paul must not have been speaking about meat, but about any evil desires.
fjtoth said:
"He wrote: "Do not be idolaters, as [kathos] some of them were; as it is written, 'The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.'" To refrain exactly and to the same degree from idolatry as engaged in by the Israelites requires that we avoid worship of a molten calf whereas Paul obviously had something more than that in mind. He wrote: "Nor let us act immorally, as [kathos] some of them did." Paul had in mind the village of Shittim where "the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab," but he would have been exempting Christian women if he precisely meant that Christians should stay away from Shittim and Moabite women."
My Response:
Once again, Paul is saying that Christians must watch out and avoid idolatry and fornication. Jesus and Paul taught that greediness and covetousness are idolatry, and Jesus taught that lusting for a woman was the same as having sexual relations with her. Therefore, in God's eyes, a person who is greedy or covetous is an idolater just as those Israelites were, and a person who lusts for women in his heart is a fornicator, just as those Israelites were.
Paul could rightly say "Do not commit idolatry or fornication just as they did." In this passage, "kathos" may mean "just like," or "in the same way." It could mean "to the same degree" also, because, as Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount, if you have committed these sins in your heart, you stand guilty before God, just as if you had actually physically committed these sins.
fjtoth said:
"Finally, Paul wrote: "Nor let us try the Lord, as [kathos] some of them did." If kathos means "exactly as" and "to the same degree as," then Paul was telling us not to desire going back to the land of Egypt, a very unusual restriction if meant for Christians of the first century and later."
My Response:
Again, Paul is saying not to test or try the Lord just as, just like, in the same way, or to the same degree, that the Israelites tested God. He's not talking about the method that those Israelites used in sinning, he's talking about the result of their sinning -- testing God. There are many, many different ways for sinful people to test God.
fjtoth said:
"Other examples could be cited, but these should be sufficient to show that a person is grasping at straws and has a weak case if he needs to read into the meaning of words what was not originally intended."
My Response:
Please carefully examine the Thayer's and Strong's definitions of "kathos," and then please enlighten me as to what the actual meaning of "kathos" is.
Most important in this discussion is the actual immediate context of John chapter 5. Please note that Jesus' statement in John 5:23 did not occur in a vacuum. Look at the surrounding context:
In John 5:16, the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He was working on the Sabbath. In Verse 17, Jesus replied that He has the same rights and authority to work on the Sabbath that HIS OWN Father has. In John 5:18, the Jews try to kill Him even more now because not only is He working on the Sabbath, He also claimed to be equal to God by calling Him "My Father."
Now, take a look at John 5:18, and 5:20-24, and I think it becomes quite obvious what Jesus was saying to the Jews:
John 5:18, 20-24 (ESV): This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. [...] For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
The Pharisees (rightfully so) believed that ONLY Almighty God would render judgment and raise the dead and forgive sins and grant eternal life, but they failed to understand that God is not ONE PERSON, but THREE Persons -- The Father, The Son, and The Spirit, just as they also failed to recognize that Jesus was the Messiah.
Let's also take a look at how the phrase "just as" (irregardless of which Greek word) is used in John Chapter 5 itself:
John 5:21 (NWT): For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.
John 5:23 (NWT): in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
John 5:26 (NWT): For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.
John 5:30 (NWT): I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
It appears to me that in each instance in John Chapter 5, the phrase "just as" means "to the same degree" or "according as," or "the same as."
What are your thoughts on those occurences of "just as" in John chapter 5?
fjtoth said:
"Nowhere does he describe himself or even hint of himself as three persons. I sometimes wonder if Trinitarians think they know God better than he knows himself."
My Response:
God referred to Himself as "We" and "Us" on multiple occasions in the Old Testament. (Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8)
In the Old Testament, The Angel of The LORD is a distinct Person from YHWH, yet He is also addressed as YHWH, worshiped as YHWH, prayed to as YHWH, and does things only YHWH can do.
In the O.T. and the N.T., Three Divine Persons are mentioned together several times. (Isaiah 63:9-10; Isaiah 48:16; Matthew 28:19; John 15:26; 1st Peter 1:2)
Those are pretty good "hints" in the Bible that more than One Person make up the True God.
fjtoth said:
"Jesus claimed that he and the Jews knew God whereas others didn't. He told a Samaritan woman, "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22) Jesus was not a Trinitarian, and neither were the Jews. So it seems to me that Trinitarians today are saying "Jesus put God in a box just as the Jews did, and we Trinitarians are above that. We know better than Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Isaiah, and even Jesus." "My Response:
We cannot base our beliefs on what the Jews believe, especially not on what the Jews of Jesus' day believed. We must base our beliefs on what Jesus and His inspired apostles and disciples taught, as well as what God's INSPIRED Jewish writers had to say. The majority of Jews in Jesus' day rejected Jesus and did not believe He was their coming Messiah.
If they couldn't recognize the truth that Jesus was their Messiah, which is one of the absolute requirements of the Christian faith, how can we base our beliefs on what they believed back then?
Here is the list of the verses in the Gospel of John where "kathos" occurs:
John 1:23 (KJV): He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as [Gr: "kathos"] said the prophet Isaiah.
John 3:14 (KJV): And as [Gr: "kathos"] Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
John 5:30 (KJV): I can of mine own self do nothing: as [Gr: "kathos"] I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 6:31 (KJV): Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as [Gr: "kathos"] it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
John 6:57 (KJV): As [Gr: "kathos"] the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
John 6:58 (KJV): This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as [Gr: "kathos"] your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.
John 7:38 (KJV): He that believeth on me, as [Gr: "kathos"] the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as [Gr: "kathos"] my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 10:15 (KJV): As [Gr: "kathos"] the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:26 (KJV): But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as [Gr: "kathos"] I said unto you.
John 12:14 (KJV): And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as [Gr: "kathos"] it is written,
John 12:50 (KJV): And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as [Gr: "kathos"] the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 13:15 (KJV): For I have given you an example, that ye should do as [Gr: "kathos"] I have done to you.
John 13:33 (KJV): Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as [Gr: "kathos"] I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
John 13:34 (KJV): A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as [Gr: "kathos"] I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 14:27 (KJV): Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as [Gr: "kathos"] the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
John 14:31 (KJV): But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as [Gr: "kathos"] the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
John 15:4 (KJV): Abide in me, and I in you. As [Gr: "kathos"] the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:9 (KJV): As [Gr: "kathos"] the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
John 15:10 (KJV): If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as [Gr: "kathos"] I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:12 (KJV): This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as [Gr: "kathos"] I have loved you.
John 17:1-2 (KJV): These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As [Gr: "kathos"] thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John 17:11 (KJV): And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as [Gr: "kathos"] we are.
John 17:14 (KJV): I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as [Gr: "kathos"] I am not of the world.
John 17:16 (KJV): They are not of the world, even as [Gr: "kathos"] I am not of the world.
John 17:18 (KJV): As [Gr: "kathos"] thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
John 17:21 (KJV): That they all may be one; as [Gr: "kathos"] thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:22 (KJV): And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as [Gr: "kathos"] we are one:
John 17:23 (KJV): I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as [Gr: "kathos"] thou hast loved me.
John 19:40 (KJV): Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as [Gr: "kathos"] the manner of the Jews is to bury.
John 20:21 (KJV): Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as [Gr: "kathos"] my Father hath sent me, even so send I, you.