Did GOD become a Man?

by UnDisfellowshipped 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    To argue on the basis of one Greek word that Jesus must be honored "to the same degree" as the Father is to overlook how that Greek adverb is used elsewhere in the New Testament. Kathos does not literally mean "exactly as" or "to the same degree as." For example, it appears in Luke 22:29-30. There Jesus said, "just as [kathos] my Father has granted me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom." Jesus did not grant the disciples a position and authority equal to what his Father had granted him. He says it is "my kingdom," and any disciple who dares to make the claim in the sense that Jesus did is presumptuous indeed.

    The word also appears several times in 1 Corinthians 10:6-9. Paul wrote that we should "not crave evil things as [kathos] they also craved." To insist that kathos means "exactly as" or "to the same degree as" implies that we must not go out in the desert and crave meat to eat, which is the past incident Paul was referring to. That is hardly the sense of what Paul meant. He wrote: "Do not be idolaters, as [kathos] some of them were; as it is written, 'The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.'" To refrain exactly and to the same degree from idolatry as engaged in by the Israelites requires that we avoid worship of a molten calf whereas Paul obviously had something more than that in mind. He wrote: "Nor let us act immorally, as [kathos] some of them did." Paul had in mind the village of Shittim where "the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab," but he would have been exempting Christian women if he precisely meant that Christians should stay away from Shittim and Moabite women.

    Finally, Paul wrote: "Nor let us try the Lord, as [kathos] some of them did." If kathos means "exactly as" and "to the same degree as," then Paul was telling us not to desire going back to the land of Egypt, a very unusual restriction if meant for Christians of the first century and later.

    Other examples could be cited, but these should be sufficient to show that a person is grasping at straws and has a weak case if he needs to read into the meaning of words what was not originally intended.

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Yes. "God manifest Himself in the flesh." He is my Lord, and my God. Took years to get to this point in my thoughts and worship.

    Ditto what Lawrence said.

    I believe that the Father and Son are both God in a henotheistic relationship.

    Sylvia

  • lawrence
    lawrence

    I have spent the last few weeks speaking with friends about this subject. That was after I read 1 Tim 3:16 and it no longer read the way I had read it for 35 years. Then I heard Thomas speak, and those words were no longer the same. The word "trinity" is what people describe and diatribe, that is a man's word. God is so much bigger! It's amazing when we do not put God in a box.

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Lawrence,

    What does it mean to "put God in a box"? He has put himself in a book, the Bible. He has put himself in the language of humans so that we might understand who he is, what he's like and how we can walk day by day in a relationship with him. He has placed his activities in natural creation so that we might appreciate his personality. So what does it mean to put God "in a box," an expression often used by Trinitarians to label non-Trinitarians?

    As I see it, Trinitarians are the ones who have placed God in a box. They have this concept in their minds that was drawn up in short creeds centuries after the Bible was written, and they won't allow themselves to think any differently than the brief descriptions of God given in those creeds. The Athanasian creed even says we're worthy of death if we don't accept and conform to that narrow concept, a concept that ignores pages and pages of the Bible where God speaks of himself thousands of times as "me" and "I". Nowhere does he describe himself or even hint of himself as three persons. I sometimes wonder if Trinitarians think they know God better than he knows himself. Jesus claimed that he and the Jews knew God whereas others didn't. He told a Samaritan woman, "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22) Jesus was not a Trinitarian, and neither were the Jews. So it seems to me that Trinitarians today are saying "Jesus put God in a box just as the Jews did, and we Trinitarians are above that. We know better than Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Isaiah, and even Jesus."

    Frank

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    He has put himself in a book, the Bible.

    Who decided what books belong in the Bible?

    BTS

  • Perry
    Perry

    SCRIPTURE KJV

    1 Cor. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    Zech 12: 9,10 (Jehovah is speaking) and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son

    Micah 5: 2 (Jesus is from everlasting…before time) Bethlehem…out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting

    Daniel 3:25 (The Son of God made occasional appearance in the OT) the Son of God

    I Timothy 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh

    Philippians 2:6 (Jesus did not think that he was robbing God by being his equal) thought it not robbery to be equal with God

    Matthew 20:20 worshipping him (Jesus was worshipped)

    Hosea 13: 4 Yet I am the LORD thy God… for there is no saviour beside me

    John 4:42 (Both Jehovah and Christ are the only saviour”) – this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world

    Jehovah is Lord and so is Jesus:

    Romans 1:3 Jesus Christ our Lord
    Ephesians 3:14 of our Lord Jesus Christ
    I Thess. 2:19 our Lord Jesus Christ
    I Thess. 3:11 our Lord Jesus Christ
    II Thess. 1:8 our Lord Jesus Christ
    Ephesians 3:14 of our Lord Jesus Christ

    Luke 24:52 they worshipped him (Jesus)

    Hebrews1: 5,6 (worshipping anything other than God is idolatry) Thou art my Son… And let all the angels of God worship him.

    Hebrews 1:8 (See also Ps. 45:6) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever

    Acts 7:59,60 Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit

    Acts 20: 28 (The Christian God bleeds) feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Titus 2:13 (God himself is our savior) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us

    Revelation 1: 7,8

    (reference to Matt. 24:30 & Mark 13:26) (Jesus returns with the clouds, he is the Almighty)

    Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, …I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, … saith the Lord, … the Almighty.

    Revelation 1: 10-17 (The Son of Man is the First and the Last, he is also the Alpha and Omega,)

    I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book,… And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw … one like unto the Son of man, …
    And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last

    Rev. 22;12-16 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last…I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches

    I Timothy 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh

    John 3:13 (only God can be in two places at the same time) even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    I John 5:7,8 (quoted and found in the earliest Latin bibles -circa150 A.D.) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    Colossians 2:9 in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily

  • Perry
    Perry

    Personally, I didn't accept the Trinity when I got saved. However, after I did the research above..... my walk with God took on a COMPLETELY different character. Only then could I fully understand:

    Jesus is the Christian God. He came down from the heights of infinity to the lowest criminal exucution and took my just punishment for me, in my place....so that I wouldn't have to get what I deserve. Why? Just so that I could walk with him in this life without the fear of punishment in the next.

    What a God! What a Savior! I will follow him for eternity for what he did for me.

  • winnower
    winnower

    Jesus and the Father are two separate and distinct entities. Mark 11:25 (spoken by Jesus) And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." Jesus tells you that the Father is in a different location. Many times he refers to the Father as being in Heaven. Jesus was on the earth. He never said he was a time traveler back and forth. Mark 13:32 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. The Father has knowledge that Jesus does not have. Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. If Jesus WAS the Father, then who was he praying to? Matthew 20:23 23 Jesus told them, “You will indeed drink from my bitter cup. But I have no right to say who will sit on my right or my left. My Father has prepared those places for the ones he has chosen.” Ultimate decisions are made by the Father, not Jesus. John 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me. Again, Jesus is very clear that he was sent by another entity as an emissary. John 14: 28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Jesus clearly tells you the Father is greater ( more powerful, highest authority) than he is. John 5:43

    I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

    Jesus reveals his status as an ambassador; an authorized representative; an emissary

    John 14:7

    If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also

    In considering the characteristics and attributes of Jesus, how could this jehovah god be anything like him?

    Jehovah god is NOT "the Father" that Jesus speaks of.

    Jehovah god is just another one of the many Hebrew gods used by wizard priests to control the people.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Winnower,

    Are you an atheist? If so, I can understand your position.

    If not, then do you think that a God responsible for the infinite complexity of creation, could if he wanted to, express himself three different ways?

    Would your concept of God prevent him from doing that if he wanted to?

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    I'm of the opinion that if you view yourself as anything less than a God then you are selling yourself short.

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