Joseph Campbell's Comments on "Sects"

by Rapunzel 12 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Rapunzel

  Recently, I have been reading Jospeh Campbell's Myths To Live By. In it, on pages 213 - 214, there is the following passage:

  "A functioning mythological symbol I have defined as 'an energy-evoking and energy directing sign.' Dr. [John] Perry [a psychiatrist at the University of California] has termed such signals 'affect images.' Their messages are addressed not to the brain...Yet they pass through the brain, and the educated brain may intefere, misinterpret, and so short-circuit the messages. When that occurs the signs no longer function as they should. The inherited mythology is garbled, and its guiing value lost or misconstrued. Or, what is worse, one may have been brought up to respond to a set of signal not present in the general environment; as is frequently the case, for example, with children raised in the circles of certain special sects [emphasis mine], not participating in - and even despising or resenting - the culture forms of the rest of civilization. Such a person will never feel quite at home in the larger social field, but always uneasy and even slightly paranoid. Nothing touches him as it should. means to him what it should, or moves him as it moves others. He is compelled to retreat for his satisfactions back to the restricted and accordinglyrestricting context of the sect... to which he was attuned. He is disorientated, and even dangerous, in the larger field [...] More normally, rational parents will wish to have produced socially as well as physically healthy offspring, well enough attuned to the system of sentiments of the culture into which they are growing to be able to appraise its values rationally and align themselves constructively with its progressive, decent, life-fostering, and fructifying elements.

  And so we have this critical problem...of seeing to it that the mythology...that we are communicating to our young will deliver directive messages qualified to relate them richly and vitally to the environment that is to be theirs for life, and not to some period of man already past, some piously desiderated future, or - what is worst of all - some querulous, freakish sect or momenary fad. And I call this problem critical because, when it is badly resolved, the result for the miseducated individual is what is known, in mythological terms, as a "Waste Land" situattion. The world does not talk to him; he does not talk to the world. When that is the case, there is a cut-off [or alienation]...and he is in prime shape for that psychotic break-away that will turn him into either an essential schizophrenic in a padded cell, or a paranoid screaming slogans at large, in a bughouse without walls."

  I am wondering if anyone here can identify with any of the points made by Campbell in his book. In your estimation, is he totally "off the mark," as they say?

  I have to say that, in general, I find this book a fascinating read.
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  hamilcarr

  Thanks for sharing this passage. Very fascinating indeed. I must admit I'm not so familiar with Campell though.

  He is compelled to retreat for his satisfactions back to the restricted and accordingly restricting context of the sect ... to which he was attuned.

  Sad to say, this behavioral determinism has indeed been proven true time and time again.
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  Mickey mouse

  with children raised in the circles of certain special sects [emphasis mine], not participating in - and even despising or resenting - the culture forms of the rest of civilization. Such a person will never feel quite at home in the larger social field, but always uneasy and even slightly paranoid. Nothing touches him as it should. means to him what it should, or moves him as it moves others.

  Yep, that's a fair description of me.

  Mickey.
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  quietlyleaving

  I was reading some intersting stuff about sects recently - they have a very high turnover rate. Generally people join and then leave after approximately 2 years. If Campbell is referring to those sorts of sects then 2 years isn't going to be as damaging as he suggests.

  I don't see JWs falling into that definition of sect wherein people have had enough after 2 years.

  To me JWs do fall into the category of world rejecting religion but because they still have everyday interaction with the world the bad effects are somewhat mitigated. So I think I'd see Campbell's ideas as "off the wall" if applied to JWs.

  "A functioning mythological symbol I have defined as 'an energy-evoking and energy directing sign.' Dr. [John] Perry [a psychiatrist at the University of California] has termed such signals 'affect images.' Their messages are addressed not to the brain...Yet they pass through the brain, and the educated brain may intefere, misinterpret, and so short-circuit the messages. When that occurs the signs no longer function as they should. The inherited mythology is garbled, and its guiing value lost or misconstrued. Or, what is worse, one may have been brought up to respond to a set of signal not present in the general environment; as is frequently the case, for example, with children raised in the circles of certain special sects [emphasis mine], not participating in - and even despising or resenting - the culture forms of the rest of civilization. Such a person will never feel quite at home in the larger social field, but always uneasy and even slightly paranoid. Nothing touches him as it should. means to him what it should, or moves him as it moves others. He is compelled to retreat for his satisfactions back to the restricted and accordinglyrestricting context of the sect... to which he was attuned.?

  But I think I do see a degree of the above in myself. I think we'd have to read what he says very carefully. I don't like the way that he juxtaposes mythological beliefs with certain special sects - too sweeping for me.

  He is disorientated, and even dangerous, in the larger field [...] More normally, rational parents will wish to have produced socially as well as physically healthy offspring, well enough attuned to the system of sentiments of the culture into which they are growing to be able to appraise its values rationally and align themselves constructively with its progressive, decent, life-fostering, and fructifying elements.
  

  And so we have this critical problem...of seeing to it that the mythology...that we are communicating to our young will deliver directive messages qualified to relate them richly and vitally to the environment that is to be theirs for life, and not to some period of man already past, some piously desiderated future, or - what is worst of all - some querulous, freakish sect or momenary fad. And I call this problem critical because, when it is badly resolved, the result for the miseducated individual is what is known, in mythological terms, as a "Waste Land" situattion. The world does not talk to him; he does not talk to the world. When that is the case, there is a cut-off [or alienation]...and he is in prime shape for that psychotic break-away that will turn him into either an essential schizophrenic in a padded cell, or a paranoid screaming slogans at large, in a bughouse without walls."

  I am wondering if anyone here can identify with any of the points made by Campbell in his book. In your estimation, is he totally "off the mark," as they say

  schizophrenia and psychotic breakdowns - isn't there a very strong chemical component?
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  jwfacts

  So I think I'd see Campbell's ideas as "off the wall" if applied to JWs.

  "A functioning mythological symbol I have defined as 'an energy-evoking and energy directing sign.' Dr. [John] Perry [a psychiatrist at the University of California] has termed such signals 'affect images.' Their messages are addressed not to the brain...Yet they pass through the brain, and the educated brain may intefere, misinterpret, and so short-circuit the messages. When that occurs the signs no longer function as they should. The inherited mythology is garbled, and its guiing value lost or misconstrued. Or, what is worse, one may have been brought up to respond to a set of signal not present in the general environment; as is frequently the case, for example, with children raised in the circles of certain special sects [emphasis mine], not participating in - and even despising or resenting - the culture forms of the rest of civilization. Such a person will never feel quite at home in the larger social field, but always uneasy and even slightly paranoid. Nothing touches him as it should. means to him what it should, or moves him as it moves others.

  QuietlyLeaving, I have to disagree, this perfectly applies to JWs when raised in it. By being raised their entire life to view birthdays, Xmas, politics, other religious ideas, money, competitive sport, nightclubs, (im)morality, smoking and education as wrong, JWs are always subconsciously (if not consciously) judgemental of the culture that they live in.

  I find it very difficult to clear myself of these ingrained valuations of others.
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  quietlyleaving

  jwfacts

  So I think I'd see Campbell's ideas as "off the wall" if applied to JWs.

  "A functioning mythological symbol I have defined as 'an energy-evoking and energy directing sign.' Dr. [John] Perry [a psychiatrist at the University of California] has termed such signals 'affect images.' Their messages are addressed not to the brain...Yet they pass through the brain, and the educated brain may intefere, misinterpret, and so short-circuit the messages. When that occurs the signs no longer function as they should. The inherited mythology is garbled, and its guiing value lost or misconstrued. Or, what is worse, one may have been brought up to respond to a set of signal not present in the general environment; as is frequently the case, for example, with children raised in the circles of certain special sects [emphasis mine], not participating in - and even despising or resenting - the culture forms of the rest of civilization. Such a person will never feel quite at home in the larger social field, but always uneasy and even slightly paranoid. Nothing touches him as it should. means to him what it should, or moves him as it moves others.

  QuietlyLeaving, I have to disagree, this perfectly applies to JWs when raised in it. By being raised their entire life to view birthdays, Xmas, politics, other religious ideas, money, competitive sport, nightclubs, (im)morality, smoking and education as wrong, JWs are always subconsciously (if not consciously) judgemental of the culture that they live in.

  I find it very difficult to clear myself of these ingrained valuations of others.

  here is my comment regarding the paragraph from Cambell's quote above.

  But I think I do see a degree of the above in myself. I think we'd have to read what he says very carefully. I don't like the way that he juxtaposes mythological beliefs with certain special sects - too sweeping for me.

  but do you think you are

  in prime shape for that psychotic break-away that will turn him into either an essential schizophrenic in a padded cell, or a paranoid screaming slogans at large, in a bughouse without walls."
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  Rapunzel

  Hi - In order to be fair to Campell, I have to say that in Myths to Live By, there is a distinction made between essential and paranoid schizophrenia. It seems that for Campbell, there are connections that can be made between the essential schizophrenic and the traditional shamin. Moreover, Myths To Live By consists of a collection twelve (12) articles which were originally lectures delivered by Campbell. The lecture, "Schizophrenia - the Inward Journey" was first given in 1970. Of course, the sciences of psychiatry psyhopathology have made great prrogress both in diagnosis and treatment,

  In any case, the passage reads - In his article, Dr. [Julian] Silverman [of the National Institute of Mental Health] had distinguished two very different types of schizophrenia. One he calls essential schizophrenia; the other, paranoid schizophrenia; and it is in essential schizophrenia alone that analogies appear with what I have termed the 'shamin crisis.' In essential schizophrenia the characteristic pattern is withdrawl from the impacts of experience in the outside world. There is a narrowiing of concern and focus. The object world falls back and away, and invasions from the unconscious overtake and overwhelm one. In paranoidschizophrenia, on the other hand, the person remains alert and extremely sensitive to the world and its events, interpreting all, however, in terms of his own projected fantasies, fears, and terrors, and with a sense of being in danger from assaults. The assaults, actually are from within, but he projects them outward...This, states Dr. Silverman, is not the type of schizophrenia that leads to the sorts of inward experience that are analogous to those of shamanism. 'It is as if the paranoid schizophrenic,' he explains, unable to comprehend or tolerate the stark terrors of his inner world, prematurely directs his atention to the outside world, In this sort of abortive crisis solution, the inner chaos is not, so to speak, worked through, or is not capable of being worked through.' The lunatic victim is at large, so to say, in the field of his own projected unconscious."

  The opposite type of psychotic patient [suffering from essential schizophrenia], on the other hand,...has dropped into a snake-pit deep within, His whole attention, his whole being, is down there, engaged in a life-and-death battle with the terrible apparitions of unmastered psychological energies - which... is exactly what the potential shaman is doing in the period of his visionary journey."

  For Campbell, the difference between the shamin and the "essential schizophrenic" is that the shamin does not reject the local social order and its forms. In fact, it is by virtue of these forms that he is brought back to rational consciosness.
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  quietlyleaving

  interesting stuff Rapunzel - sent me looking for stuff on schizophrenia and shamanism.

  http://spiritualemergency.blogspot.com/2006/01/shamanism-schizophrenia.html
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  Narkissos

  Very interesting (as ever).

  I just think this approach must be completed by a sociological one (among others).

  What if "sects" or "cults" were among the "tricks" that modern Western societies -- which theoretically welcome the idea of difference but practically generate overwhelming uniformity -- "use" to create fresh difference within themselves? Of course this is done at an outrageous cost to the individuals, especially those stuck between a subculture and the wider culture. But those individuals may be all the more vital to a society choking in sameness.

  Foucault comes to mind, again.

  And also the notion of "overadaptation" as beautifully worked out by Michel Tournier in Le roi des aulnes.
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  Rapunzel

  In my opinion, Campbell is truly nonpareil in the field of comparative mythology, This quote is from page 202 of Myths To Live By - "My own had been a work based on a comparative study of the mythologies of mankind [here, Campbell is referring to his 1949 classic, The Hero with a Thousand Faces], with only here and there passing references to the phenomenology of dream, hysteria, mystic visions, and the like. Mainly, it was an organiztion of themes and motifs common to all mythologies; and I had no idea, in bringing these together, of the extent to which they would correspond to the fantasies of madness. According to my thinking, they were the universal, archetypal, psychologically based symbolic themes and motifs of all traditional mythologies; and now from this paper of Dr. Perry [published in the Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, vol. 96, January 27, 1962, pp. 853 - 876] I was learning that the same symbolic figures arise spontaneously from the broken-off, tortured state of mind of modern individuals suffering from a complete schizophrenic breakdown: the condition of one who has lost touch with the life and thought of his community and is compulsively fantasizing out of his own completely cut-off base.

  Very briefly: The usual pattern is, first, of a break away or departure from the local social order and context; next, a long, deep inward retreat inward and backward, backward, as it were, in time, and inward, deep into the psyche; a chaotic series of encounters there, darkly terrifying experiences, and presently (if the victim is fortunate) encounters of a centering kind, fulfilling, harmonizing, giving new courage; and then finally, in such fortunate cases, a return journey of rebirth to life.

  And that is the universal formula also of the mythological hero journey, which I, in my own published work [The Hero with a Thousand Faces], had described as: 1) separation, 2) initiation, and 3) return:

  A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow men (H.W.T.F., page 30)

  That is the pattern of the myth, and that is the pattern of these fantasies of the psyche.

  On page 230 of M.T.L.B., Campbell writes - "In sum, then: The inward journeys of the mythological hero, the shaman, the mystic, and the schizophrenic are in principle the same; and when the return or remission occurs, it is experienced as a rebirth, that is to say, of a 'twice born' ego, no longer bound in by its daylight-world horizon."

  In general, I have found Campbell's Myths To Live By a fantastic and fascinating treasure trove of ideas and viewpoints. The following is just one example, Taken from the seventh chapter of the book, entitled "The Mythology of Love," it presents an unorthodox, antinomian [in the sense of contrary to customary conception] portait of Satan. This [re]visionary understanding of Satan is taken from a mystical Persian source. However, it is antithetical to both orthodox Christian and Moslem mythology. According to this portrait, Satan's plight, his banishment to Hell, was not due to pride or animosity, it was due to his love for God. The quote on page 148 reads as follows - "One of the most amazing images of love that I know is Persian - a mystical Persian representation of Satan as the most loyal lover of God. You will have all heard the old legend of how, when God created the angels, he commanded them to pay worship to no one but himself; but then, creating man, he commanded them [the angels] to bow in reverence to this most noble of his works, and Lucifer refused - because, we are told, of his pride.

  However, according to this Moslem reading of his case, it was rather because he [Satan] loved, and adored God so deeply and intensely that he could not bring himself to bow before anything else. And it was for that that he was flung into Hell condemned to exist there forever, apart from his love.

  Now it has been said that of all the pains of Hell, the worst is neither the fire nor stench but the deprivation forever of the beatific sight of God. How infinitely painful, then, must be the exile of this great lover be, who could not bring himself, even on God's own word, to bow before any other being!

  The Persian poets have asked, 'By what power is Satan sustained?' And the answer that they found is this: 'By his memory of the sound of God's voice when he said, "Be gone!"' What an image of the exquisite spiritual agony which is at once the rapture and agony of love!"