How "much" is too much? How "far" is too far? How "bad" is too bad?
It's not a matter of degrees, measuring one experience against another so that, somehow, a more depraved action excuses a less depraved action. The Bible is a study in human nature and intent: predatory behavior (the sinner) and victimization (the sinned against) and mercy...and we have our own experiences to verify it. In yet another sexual scenario, it's less about how the genitals are used; but for what purpose. If you're over-40, you shouldn't need a Bible or a brain-surgeon to tell you that there are countless ways that we can (and do) hurt each other. Bottom-line, sexual abuse (in whatever form) crosses the boundaries of the physical, emotional, intellectual, and the spiritual. It does MORE damage than a punch in the nose or a harsh word. The Bible offers a measure of "protection"..."words to the wise" so to speak. I can see its wisdom...and its real-world, practical application.
Carlos
View of Homosexuality in NT- Scholarly Viewpoint
by Balsam 19 Replies latest members adult
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Carlos_Helms
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Perry
The rendering “temple male prostitutes” is an interpretation as is the rendering “sodomite.” According to Strong’s, the Hebrew term is “qadesh, kaw-dashe'; from H6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (techn.) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry.”
The Hebrew word translated “sodomite” is also translated “unclean” (Job 36:14).
In the Authorized Version this Hebrew word is translated “sodomite” and “unclean.” The term “sodomite” did not originate with the KJV of 1611 but was brought over from the Geneva Bible, because the translators understood that the sin described in these passages is connected with the moral perversion of old Sodom.
The 1828 Webster dictionary defined “sodomy” as “a crime against nature.” (By the way, the Webster's Deluxe Unabridged Dictionary of 1983 defines sodomy as “any sexual intercourse regarded as abnormal, as between persons of the same sex, especially males, or between a person and an animal.”)
Many older Bible dictionaries connect sodomy with homosexuality in general. John Eadie (1872) defines Sodomite as “not dwellers in Sodom, but practisers of unnatural lust--the sin of Sodom. This sin was consecrated in many Eastern kingdoms.”
The People’s Bible Encyclopedia by Charles Randall Barnes (1903) says: “The sodomites were not inhabitants of Sodom, nor their descendants, but men consecrated to the unnatural vice of Sodom (Gen. 19:5; comp. Rom. 1:27) as a religious rite.” Note that Barnes connects the sin of sodomy with the homosexuality described in Romans 1:27.
Hastings (1898) says: “The term ‘Sodomite’ is used in Scripture to describe offences against the laws of nature which were FREQUENTLY connected with idolatrous practices” (emphasis ours). Note that Hastings did not claim that the offences against the laws of nature were restricted solely to idolatrous temple worship.
The term “sodomy” in some of the passages that use the term (e.g., 1 Ki. 14:24; 15:12; 22:46; 2 Ki. 23:7) doubtless does refer, at least in part, to the homosexuality associated with immoral pagan religions and thus to temple prostitution.
The problem with the NIV translation is that it LIMITS this sin to that particular association rather than allowing the larger meaning of homosexuality in general. It also creates the wrong impression that the practice of sodomy and the sin of Sodom itself was limited to male prostitution.
OTHER BIBLE TERMS FOR SODOMY
Some contend that the Bible only condemns prostitution and forced immorality, and that sodomy, or homosexuality, in general, is not addressed in the Word of God. That this is not true is evident by the terminology used in the following Scriptures. The language the Holy Spirit uses in the New Testament to describe same-sex relations proves that God considers this a great wickedness, whether or not it is done with consent--”uncleanness” (Rom. 1:24); “dishonour their own bodies between themselves” (Rom. 1:24); “vile affections” (Rom. 1:26); “that which is against nature” (Rom. 1:26); “that which is unseemly” (Rom. 1:27); “reprobate mind” (Rom. 1:28); “effeminate” (1 Cor. 6:9); “abusers of themselves with mankind” (1 Cor. 6:9); “inordinate affection” (Col. 3:5); “them that defile themselves with mankind” (1 Tim. 1:10); “filthy conversation” (2 Pet. 2:7); “going after strange flesh” (Jude 7).
Under the Mosaic law homosexuality called for the death penalty (Lev. 18:22-29; 20:13). The terminology used in the passages in Leviticus describe and condemn homosexuality in general--man lying with man, and woman lying with woman.
WHAT DOES GOD THINK OF HOMOSEXUALITY?
(1) It is an abomination (Lev. 18:22). (2) It bore the death penalty in the O.T. dispensation (Lev. 20:13; Ro. 1:32). (3) It defiles the land (Lev. 18:25). (4) It is the product of a morally reprobate mind (Rom. 1:26-28). (5) It is worthy of the judgment of eternal fire (Jude 7). (6) It can be forgiven and cleansed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 6:9-11).
IS SODOMY A GREATER SIN?
While it is true that there are many sins other than homosexuality and all sin is wicked before God, and while it is true that any sin can be forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ, the Bible does not say that all sin is the same in its effect in this world. God did not pour out fire and brimstone upon Sodom because of its jealousy or covetousness or lack of hospitality. It was judged specifically because of homosexuality (Jude 7). Though all moral sins are evil in God's eye, homosexuality is especially corrupt because it is a sin against nature itself. It destroys the very fabric of society, which is the family as defined biblically--a man and a woman united in holy matrimony rearing children to fear God and to be productive citizens. Homosexuality is to “change the natural use into that which is against nature” (Rom. 1:26).
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Rabbit
I thought this was an interesting article that should fit in well with a calm discussion like this one has been so far.
http://www.mercurynews.com/valley/ci_9343565
Survey shatters stereotypes of same-sex duos
OLDER COUPLES MAY BE FIRST TO WED By Mike Swift
Mercury News Article Launched: 05/22/2008 01:33:45 AM PDTFew will be blushing brides or fidgety young grooms.
They will be older, a group of well-educated people whose ages average in their mid-40s. A majority will be women, many with children in tow. But the men taking their vows typically will have been together even longer than the women.
Demographers and researchers who study gay and lesbian families and relationships predict that the first wave of couples who marry in the wake of last week's California Supreme Court decision will be drawn from the state's pool of registered domestic partners. And they will look a lot like the first couples who married in Massachusetts or entered civil unions in Vermont.
Yet, a unique state study and other data that provide an unprecedented portrait of a state's lesbian and gay population also suggest that in California, marrying couples could quickly shatter stereotypes about gays as being the wealthy, urban and white, and about gay men as being unwilling to commit to a permanent life partner.
In rural California, "the population is definitely more Latino than the gay population statewide. There are significant numbers of people raising children - there are 8,300 same-sex couples in these rural counties that are raising children," said Lisa Cisneros, an attorney with California Rural Legal Assistance, quoting statistics for the 21 counties her organization serves.
"Over time, that's what we'll see in the couples that get married in California."
In rural California, more than half of same-sex couples with children are Hispanic, said Gary Gates, a demographer with the Williams Institute at the UCLA law school who analyzed U.S. Census data to reach that conclusion.
"I would not be surprised if in a fairly short time you see there are a lot more couples marrying that break the stereotypes," Gates said. "They are potentially people of color.
Before November?
"The question is," he said, "will it happen before November?"
November is when California voters are likely to vote on a prohibition against same-sex marriage in the state constitution. California voters would be making a decision no American voter has yet faced, potentially voting to annul the marriages of actual couples, not just deciding the concept of same-sex marriage.
So many voters "will know a couple that actually got married - you might have gotten invited to their wedding - that I think it will really personalize it for people," said Esther Rothblum, a professor of women's studies at San Diego State University.
Much of the data on gay and lesbian couples in California comes from a survey done for the state as part of an investigation of tobacco use among various ethnic and demographic groups.
One conclusion of that survey is that while lesbians are more likely to be in relationships than gay men, gay men who are in relationships - on average - have been in them longer than women.
Male registered domestic partners in California have been together an average of 12.25 years, compared to 8.91 years for women, Gates found in his analysis of the survey of the state's lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender population in 2004.
Durable relationships
Gates said those findings, to be published in the journal Demography, surprise many people who assume gay men rarely form durable relationships. But they also ring true to many gay men.
"I've observed that myself," said Gary Lawson, a psychologist who lives in Mountain View and who has been with his partner Tom Ammon since 1980. "Certainly among my friends and colleagues, that seems to be true."
Lawson said he has no clear sense as to why. Social research suggests women more frequently initiate the break-up of a couple, which could be one explanation, Gates said. Lesbians are also nearly three times more likely to have been in a previous heterosexual marriage than gay men, according to the California survey.
Still, based on the experience of same-sex couples who have married in Massachusetts or entered a civil union in Vermont, a majority of the couples who get married in the wake of last week's California Supreme Court ruling will likely be female.
The Census Bureau estimates that California had about 109,000 same-sex couples living together in 2006. Those numbers have grown significantly since the 2000 Census, particularly in rural parts of the state, probably because same-sex couples are more willing to acknowledge their status.
"More people are coming out and at the same time, the homophobia is still very entrenched," Cisneros said. "People want to be themselves, whether they are at work or at school, and sometimes the culture in a community hasn't really caught up with that."
Contact Mike Swift at [email protected] or (408) 271-3648 -
Balsam
Wow I'm glad I posted this, topic. The thing is, we need as ex-JW's to re-examine the interpretations given us by the WTBTS and that is the whole point of this discussion. We think for ourselves now and even those of us who are straight can embrace those in the gay community with kindness and acceptance. If your religious and look to the bible then we need to stress that God loves and care about everyone including the folks who are gay or bi's. There is no way sexual urges will go away and if God created us all just as we are then so be it. We all have different paths, one being no more right over another. So long as we do no harm to other people all should be accepted and embraced as brother & sisters.
I know from experience with my sons they say many young women today are bi-sexual and that the guys love it. I know at first I though I wonder why and I still don't understand it but its OK. My sons see it as perfectly acceptable and my research into the bible openly helped me feel OK about it. I asked them one time so do guys feel they are bi-sexual too? They said they thought there was less of that but certainly some went with both. But my sons were quick to point out they didn't have any interest that way. I said well whatever son I'd love you no matter what just don't hurt your self or anyone else. So society is changing constantly and what we felt when I was a teen is certainly different today. I'm OK with it and hope one day everyone will be.
I watching a program about Father Damien, a Catholic priest who made it his mission to care for the people in Hawaii who had Leprosy most of his life. These people were viewed as dirty, unclean and white Europeans said their disease was a result of loose sexual behavior. They believed they were contagious because there was no treatment for it. The good Father knew God loved these poor rejected cast off people as much or perhaps more and he never let the criticism of others stop him from taking care of them.
People hate anything the don't understand so I believe that we all need to understand and practice love towards all.
Ruth
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Sad emo
This story along with its parallel in Luke 7 has often been cited to show Jesus' implicit approval of homosexual relationships by the fact that he both heard the centurion's request and responded positively. In Matthew's version, the word used for 'servant' is pais - which could mean 'boy' - in Greek usage, it was apparently often used to refer to the younger lover of an older man. In Luke's account, the servant is said to be 'dear' to the centurion - whether this meant in terms of price or emotional context is strongly debated!Matthew chapter 8:
The Faith of the Centurion
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."
8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
The way I see it is that if "In Christ there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free" then there's no 'gay or straight' either! If He doesn't do labels, neither should we
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ninja
to me.....Jesus went to the people who were out of the "acceptable" loop........treat everyone nice and let Jesus deal with the judging........that's my viewpoint......who am I to judge any man?.......peace to ya all...my brothers and sisters
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Narkissos
Good article Balsam.
Imo propositions # 4 and 5 are the weakest (in the sense of "too nice / politically correct to be true") but the author fairly presents them as mere possibilities. I personally think it is safer to admit that the texts simply "paste" stereotyped (and, for that reason, not thoroughly thought) "vice catalogs" reflecting the common Jewish prejudice (and misunderstanding) about Gentile (especially Greek) ethics.
And, indeed, ancient "homosexuality" has little to do with the modern notion. As a French writer recently put it, ancient Greek "pederasts" would probably have smiled at the notion of "gay marriage". It mostly implied a difference of age and status, and was not generally considered "abusive" (against # 5), since it was part of a process of education (paideia), contributing to the social and intellectual promotion of the younger partner who did not consider himself a "victim" (the complex relationship between Saul, David and Jonathan might be understood along the same lines in an early, pre-Torah Israelite context).
One particularly ludicrous point in Perry's post is about Sodom. First, because in the OT its destruction is only exceptionally related to "homosexuality" of any kind (see for instance Ezekiel 16:46ff, where the "explanation" is entirely different). Second, because in the context of Jude (where it is clear that Lot's guests are "angels," not mere "men") the point is about the connection of the "spiritual" and "earthly" realm. People of Sodom are condemned, not for "going after the same flesh" (as in homosexuality) but for "going after a strange flesh (opisô sarkos heteras)! The argument is actually targeting the contemporary "Gnostics" and their (disapproved by the main "Church") claim of immediate, "unnatural" relationship with the spirit realm (cf. the similar treatment of Genesis 6:1ff in the preceding verse).
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BurnTheShips
These alternate interpretations of the NT may or may not be correct. Hre are certain early texts conveying the viewpoint of those that were closer to the time that the epistles to Corinth and Timothy were composed:
The Didache
"You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill one that has been born" (Didache 2:2 [A.D. 70]).Justin Martyr
"[W]e have been taught that to expose newly-born children is the part of wicked men; and this we have been taught lest we should do anyone harm and lest we should sin against God, first, because we see that almost all so exposed (not only the girls, but also the males) are brought up to prostitution. And for this pollution a multitude of females and hermaphrodites, and those who commit unmentionable iniquities, are found in every nation. And you receive the hire of these, and duty and taxes from them, whom you ought to exterminate from your realm. And anyone who uses such persons, besides the godless and infamous and impure intercourse, may possibly be having intercourse with his own child, or relative, or brother. And there are some who prostitute even their own children and wives, and some are openly mutilated for the purpose of sodomy; and they refer these mysteries to the mother of the gods" (First Apology 27 [A.D. 151]).Clement of Alexandria
"All honor to that king of the Scythians, whoever Anacharsis was, who shot with an arrow one of his subjects who imitated among the Scythians the mystery of the mother of the gods . . . condemning him as having become effeminate among the Greeks, and a teacher of the disease of effeminacy to the rest of the Scythians" (Exhortation to the Greeks 2 [A.D. 190]).
"[According to Greek myth] Baubo [a female native of Eleusis] having received [the goddess] Demeter hospitably, reached to her a refreshing draught; and on her refusing it, not having any inclination to drink (for she was very sad), and Baubo having become annoyed, thinking herself slighted, uncovered her shame, and exhibited her nudity to the goddess. Demeter is delighted with the sight—pleased, I repeat, at the spectacle. These are the secret mysteries of the Athenians; these Orpheus records" (ibid.).
"It is not, then, without reason that the poets call him [Hercules] a cruel wretch and a nefarious scoundrel. It were tedious to recount his adulteries of all sorts, and debauching of boys. For your gods did not even abstain from boys, one having loved Hylas, another Hyacinthus, another Pelops, another Chrysippus, another Ganymede. Let such gods as these be worshipped by your wives, and let them pray that their husbands be such as these—so temperate; that, emulating them in the same practices, they may be like the gods. Such gods let your boys be trained to worship, that they may grow up to be men with the accursed likeness of fornication on them received from the gods" (ibid.).
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"In accordance with these remarks, conversation about deeds of wickedness is appropriately termed filthy [shameful] speaking, as talk about adultery and pederasty and the like" (The Instructor 6, ca. A.D. 193).
"The fate of the Sodomites was judgment to those who had done wrong, instruction to those who hear. The Sodomites having, through much luxury, fallen into uncleanness, practicing adultery shamelessly, and burning with insane love for boys; the All-seeing Word, whose notice those who commit impieties cannot escape, cast his eye on them. Nor did the sleepless guard of humanity observe their licentiousness in silence; but dissuading us from the imitation of them, and training us up to his own temperance, and falling on some sinners, lest lust being unavenged, should break loose from all the restraints of fear, ordered Sodom to be burned,
pouring forth a little of the sagacious fire on licentiousness; lest lust, through want of punishment, should throw wide the gates to those that were rushing into voluptuousness. Accordingly, the just punishment of the Sodomites became to men an image of the salvation which is well calculated for men. For those who have not committed like sins with those who are punished, will never receive a like punishment" (ibid., 8).Tertullian
"[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities" (Modesty 4 [A.D. 220]). -
Open mind
ninja:
who am I to judge any man?
I notice da ninjster very cleverly excluded his Mother in Law from this statement.
om