View of Homosexuality in NT- Scholarly Viewpoint

by Balsam 19 Replies latest members adult

  • Balsam
    Balsam

    I found this article at the fourth R, by Westar Institute for religious literacy very very good. Ruth

    What the New Testament Says about Homosexuality
    from The Fourth R 21,3 (May-June 2008)

    William O. Walker, Jr.

    Mainline Christian denominations in this country are bitterly divided over the question of homosexuality. For this reason it is important to ask what light, if any, the New Testament sheds on this controversial issue. Most people apparently assume that the New Testament expresses strong opposition to homosexuality, but this simply is not the case. The six propositions that follow, considered cumulatively, lead to the conclusion that the New Testament does not provide any direct guidance for understanding and making judgments about homosexuality in the modern world.

    Proposition 1: Strictly speaking, the New Testament says nothing at all about homosexuality.
    There is not a single Greek word or phrase in the entire New Testament that should be translated into English as “homosexual” or “homosexuality.” In fact, the very notion of “homosexuality”—like that of “heterosexuality,” “bisexuality,” and even “sexual orientation”—is essentially a modern concept that would simply have been unintelligible to the New Testament writers. The word “homosexuality” came into use only in the latter part of the nineteenth century, and, as New Testament scholar Victor Paul Furnish notes, it and related terms “presume an understanding of human sexuality that was possible only with the advent of modern psychological and sociological analysis.” In other words, “The ancient writers . . . were operating without the vaguest conception of what we have learned to call ‘sexual orientation’.”1 (In the rest of this article I shall use the terms “homosexual” and “homosexuality” strictly for the sake of convenience.)

    Proposition 2: At most, there are only three passages in the entire New Testament that refer to what we today would call homosexual activity.
    None of the four gospels mentions the subject. This means that, so far as we know, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, and we simply have no way of determining what his attitude toward it might have been. Moreover, there is nothing about homosexuality in the Book of Acts, in Hebrews, in Revelation, or in the letters attributed to James, Peter, John, and Jude. Further, homosexuality is not mentioned in ten of the thirteen letters attributed to Paul. It is only in Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:8–11 that there may be references to homosexuality.2 The paucity of references to homosexuality in the New Testament suggests that it was not a matter of major concern either for Jesus or for the early Christian movement.

    Proposition 3: Two of the three passages that possibly refer to homosexuality are simply more-or-less miscellaneous catalogues of behaviors that are regarded as unacceptable, with no particular emphasis placed on any individual item in the list.
    1 Corinthians 6:9–10 says that certain types of people “will not inherit the kingdom of God.” The list of such people begins with fornicators, idolaters, and adulterers, and it ends with thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Near the middle—between adulterers and thieves—are the two Greek words translated in the New Revised Standard Version as “male prostitutes” (that is, homosexual male prostitutes) and “sodomites.” But no special emphasis is placed on these people; they are simply listed along with the others. Similarly, 1 Timothy 1:8–11 says that the law was given not for good people but for bad people, and it then provides a list, giving representative examples of who these “bad people” might be. Included in the list—this time near the end but again without any special emphasis—is the Greek word translated in the New Revised Standard Version as “sodomites.” In both texts, such people are mentioned simply in passing, in more-or-less miscellaneous catalogues of unacceptable behaviors, but with no special emphasis or attention called to them.
    Such miscellaneous lists of “vices” are fairly common not only in the New Testament and other early Christian literature but also in Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greco-Roman, and Jewish writings.3 They appear to have been somewhat stereotypical in nature, representing a kind of laundry list or grab bag of negative labels that could be trotted out and used for rhetorical purposes with little attention to individual items in the lists. As something of an analogy, I cite a passage from Arlo Guthrie’s famous ballad, “Alice’s Restaurant.” In speaking of his own arrest for littering and his assignment to “Group B” in the jail, Guthrie characterizes this group as follows:

    Group B is where they putcha if you may not be moral enough to join the army after committin’ your special crime. There was all kinds of mean, nasty, ugly-lookin’ people on the bench there. There was mother rapers . . . father stabbers . . . father rapers . . . Father rapers! sittin’ right there on the bench next to me!

    In somewhat similar fashion, the catalogues in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:8–11 list “all kinds of mean, nasty, ugly-lookin’ people.”
    It should also be noted that different catalogues tend to be remarkably similar in content. They typically list the same kinds of “vices.” Furthermore, it appears that authors often took over and adapted such lists from earlier documents. This means that the New Testament writers may not actually have composed the lists in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:8–11. These may simply be conventional lists, taken and adapted from earlier documents and used here for rhetorical purposes. If so, then inclusion of the words translated as “male prostitutes” and “sodomites” may be little more than coincidental.
    In any case, neither of the catalogues—1 Corinthians 6:9–10 or 1 Timothy 1:8–11—singles out homosexual activity for any special attention. They just list, in miscellaneous fashion, various types of behaviors that are regarded as unacceptable.

    Proposition 4: It may well be that the two lists of unacceptable behaviors—1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:8–11—do not refer to homosexuality at all.
    The New Revised Standard Version translates 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 as follows:

    Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

    For our purposes, of course, the two key terms here are “male prostitutes” and “sodomites.” It may well be the case, however, that these are not the most appropriate translations of the underlying Greek in the text.4
    The Greek word translated as “male prostitutes” is the adjective malakoi (plural of malakos). This adjective means “soft,” as in a “soft” bed or a “soft” pillow. When applied to people, it can mean “lazy,” “self-indulgent,” “cowardly,” “lacking in self-control,” and the like. When applied to males, it generally refers to what are commonly regarded as feminine-like “weaknesses:” such men might be regarded as “soft,” “flabby,” “weak,” “cowardly,” “unmanly,” or “effeminate.” But to call a male “effeminate” might or might not carry implications of homosexuality. Sometimes it did, but certainly not always. When it did, it may have referred to the so-called “passive” or “effeminate” partner in the homosexual relationship. But we cannot be at all certain that malakoi refers to homosexuality in First Corinthians 6:9. It may refer to “softness” or even “effeminacy” in some other sense. In any case, the use of the adjective malakoi to describe males should probably be seen not as “homophobic” but rather as essentially “gynophobic.” It reflects a fear of women or at least of woman-like—that is, “soft” or “weak”—behavior on the part of men.5
    People have assumed that malakoi does refer to homosexuality in 1 Corinthians primarily because the next term in the list is arsenokoitai (defined below)—the assumption being, of course, that the two words are somehow linked in meaning because they appear side by side in the list. This, however, is by no means necessarily the case. “The greedy” and “drunkards” are also juxtaposed in the list, and it would be difficult to see any link between them.
    But even if malakoi and arsenokoitai are somehow linked in meaning, it is not at all clear just how arsenokoitai should be translated. It comes from two Greek words: arsen, which means “male” (as opposed to “female”), and koite which literally means “bed” but by extension can be a euphemism for sexual intercourse (like “going to bed” with someone). This would appear to suggest that arsenokoitai refers to males who “go to bed” with other males. But Dale B. Martin has pointed out that the meaning of a compound word cannot necessarily be determined by breaking it apart, looking at the meaning of each of its parts, and then simply combining these meanings to determine the meaning of the compound word. As an example, Martin cites the English word, “understand,” which has nothing to do with either “standing” or “being under.”6
    Numerous other examples could be cited, but I want to mention one that is closer to the topic under consideration. The word I have in mind is the vulgar term, “mother-fucker.” We know what this word means literally. But when people use it, they typically are not referring to someone who has sexual intercourse with his mother (or even with someone else’s mother). In fact, the word normally does not refer to sexual activity at all. Though generally viewed as highly pejorative, it is sometimes used in a more-or-less neutral sense or even, in some circles, as a term of admiration or perhaps affection. The point is, however, that its original sexual meaning is often not apparent in its actual usage. And the same thing may very well be true of the Greek word arsenokoitai. Martin has made a study of how the word is actually used in ancient Greek literature. It is a rare word. First Corinthians 6:9 is probably the earliest occurrence that we have, and most other occurrences are merely quotations from or allusions to 1 Corinthians 6:9 and/or 1 Timothy 1:10 (the only places the word occurs in the New Testament). According to Martin, though, when the word does appear independently, it is typically found in conjunction not with sins of sexual immorality but rather with sins related to economic injustice or exploitation. Thus, Martin concludes that arsenokoitai most likely refers not to homosexuality as such but rather to the “exploiting of others by means of sex, perhaps but not necessarily by homosexual sex.”7 I would suggest, however, that it might even refer to exploitation that has nothing at all to do with sex. We often use sexual language to talk about things that have nothing to do with sex. For example, someone might say, “I really fucked up!” without having sex in mind at all. Or think about how we sometimes use the word “screw.” If I say, “I really got screwed on that business deal,” I’m not talking about sex, but I am talking about exploitation. And this is consistent with Martin’s conclusion that arsenokoitai appears to refer more precisely to exploitation than to sexual activity. The bottom line is that we simply do not know what the word meant or how it was used in the first century.8
    So, malakoi means simply “soft,” perhaps “effeminate,” and it might or might not refer to homosexuality. And arsenokoitai might or might not refer explicitly to homosexuality. Therefore, we cannot be certain that First Corinthians 6:9–10 refers to homosexuality at all. The same is true of First Timothy 1:8–11, which has the word arsenokoitai but not the word malakoi. It might not refer to homosexuality either.

    Proposition 5: Even if 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:8–11 do refer to homosexuality, what they likely have in mind is not homosexuality per se but rather one particular form of homosexuality that was regarded as especially exploitive and degrading.9
    Some scholars have suggested that malakoi designates attractive young men, or boys, whose sexual services were either purchased or coerced by older men, and that arsenokoitai designates these older men who thus “used” or exploited the younger men. According to this interpretation, malakoi and arsenokoitai do refer to male homosexuality, but the objection is not necessarily to male homosexual activity per se, but rather to the prostitution, coercion, and/or exploitation that typically accompanied one particular type of male homosexuality. And this, too, is consistent with Martin’s conclusion that arsenokoitai refers more specifically to exploitation than it does to sex. Furthermore, if this is the case, then we simply have no way of knowing what the New Testament writers might have said about a non-exploitive, non-coercive, loving, committed, monogamous homosexual relationship. We cannot know because New Testament writers are not talking about that kind of homosexual relationship.
    In the final analysis, we cannot be certain that these passages refer to homosexuality at all. And if they do, they do so only in passing in more-or-less miscellaneous catalogues of various types of behaviors that are regarded as unacceptable.

    Proposition 6: The one passage in the New Testament that almost certainly does refer to homosexuality is based on some highly debatable presuppositions about its nature and causes.
    The passage in question is Romans 1:26–27. Earlier in this chapter, the author is talking about idolatry, the worship of false gods. Then, beginning in verse 24, he talks about the results of idolatry. Verses 24 and 25 identify the results of idolatry as lust, impurity, and the degrading of one’s body. Then, verses 26 and 27 spell out in more detail the nature of this lust, impurity, and bodily degradation as follows (New Revised Standard Version):

    For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

    Following verses 26 and 27, the remainder of the chapter lists some of the other results of idolatry, and the list is rather similar to the catalogues in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10 and 1 Timothy 1:8–11. In other words, homosexuality is but one among other types of unacceptable behaviors.
    What must be emphasized, then, is that the passage, taken as a whole, is not about homosexuality. It is about idolatry. The only reason it mentions homosexuality at all is because the author assumes that it is a result of willful idolatry. Knowing full well that there is one true God, people nevertheless freely choose to worship false gods. As punishment for this idolatry, God “gives them up” to homosexual activity. Thus, in a sense, homosexuality is not so much a sin as it is a punishment for sin. This should mean, however, that no monotheist would ever take part in homosexual activity—no practicing Jew or Christian or Muslim. Only worshippers of false gods would engage in such activity. This was a fairly common assumption within first-century Judaism, and it is one of the dubious presuppositions that underlie Romans 1:26–27. Clearly, however, it is not consistent with what we can observe in the world around us.
    The passage also makes at least two other assumptions that point to its essential irrelevance so far as modern discussions of homosexuality are concerned. First, it assumes that homosexuality is somehow “unnatural”—contrary to nature—or a better translation would be “beyond what is natural.” In other words, it isn’t just unusual for people to engage in homosexual activity. It is abnormal; it “goes beyond” that which is natural. According to the American Psychological Association, however, “most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive, and biological factors.”10 Moreover, psychologists tend to be extremely cautious about using such categories as “natural” and “unnatural,” “normal” and “abnormal” when talking about human behavior.
    Second, the passage assumes that homosexuality is an expression of insatiable lust. People turn to homosexual activity because heterosexual activity simply fails to satisfy them. They want more! As Dale B. Martin points out, it is somewhat like gluttony: gluttony is too much eating, and homosexuality is too much sex.11 People engage in homosexual activity because they “can’t get enough” of sex otherwise. And this, of course, is related to the notion that homosexuality “goes beyond” that which is natural. Homosexuality is essentially excessive sexuality. Together with the author’s emphasis on the verb “exchange,” this suggests that, in modern terms, the reference in the passage may be more to bisexuality than to homosexuality. If such is the case, then the passage would appear to have little relevance for people whose sole orientation is homosexual.
    In light of the assumptions that underlie Romans 1:26–27, perhaps the question to be raised when reading these verses is the following: “Exactly what is it that is being opposed here, and why is it being opposed?” Is it simply homosexuality per se, or is it the idolatry, the “abnormality,” and the insatiable lust that, in the first-century Jewish mind, were associated with homosexual activity? And a second question is this: What would the author of Romans 1:26–27 say about a loving, committed, monogamous homosexual relationship—one that was not rooted in idolatry, one that did not represent a rejection of one’s own true nature, and one that was not characterized by excessive lust? I think the answer has to be that we simply do not know, because, once again, the author is talking about something quite different.

    Conclusion: The New Testament really does not provide any direct guidance for understanding and making judgments about homosexuality in the modern world.
    To the extentthat it does talk about homosexuality, the New Testament appears to be talking about only certain types of homosexuality, and it speaks on the basis of assumptions about homosexuality that are now regarded as highly dubious. Perhaps, then, we could paraphrase what the New Testament says about homosexuality as follows: If homosexuality is exploitive, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is rooted in idolatry, then it is wrong; if homosexuality represents a denial of one’s own true nature, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is an expression of insatiable lust, then it is wrong. But we could say exactly the same thing about heterosexuality, couldn’t we?
    If homosexuality is not necessarily any of these things, however, then it would appear that the New Testament has nothing to say about it in any direct sense. Speaking specifically of the Pauline letters but in words that are applicable to the New Testament as a whole, the Pauline scholar Victor Paul Furnish puts it as follows:

    [Paul’s] letters . . . cannot yield any specific answers to the questions being faced in the modern church. Shall practicing homosexuals be admitted to church membership? Shall they be accorded responsibilities within a congregation? Shall they be commissioned to the church’s ministry? The Apostle never asks or answers these questions. . . . On these points there are no proof texts available one way or the other. It is mistaken to invoke Paul’s name in support of any specific position on these matters. 12

    In short, there is nothing in the New Testament that tells us directly whether homosexuality per se is a good thing or a bad thing or simply a fact of life.
    To be sure, when we consider its overall message, the New Testament may provide some indirect guidance regarding homosexuality. Indeed, it may well be the case that a twenty-first century “Paul” would revise Galatians 3:27–28 to read as follows:

    For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female, there is neither homosexual nor heterosexual; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Works Consulted
    American Psychological Association. “Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality.” Washington: The American Psychological Association, 1998.
    Furnish, Victor Paul. The Moral Teaching of Paul: Selected Issues. 2nd ed. Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1985.
    Martin, Dale B. Sex and the Single Savior: Gender and Sexuality in Biblical Interpretation. Louisville and London: Westminster John Knox Press, 2006.

    Notes
    1. Furnish, Moral Teaching of Paul, p. 65.
    2. Some have argued that Mark 10:6–9 and Jude 6–7 should be added to the list, but most scholars agree that these passages have nothing to do with homosexuality.
    3. In the New Testament, see, for example, Matthew 15:19; Mark 7:21–22; Luke 18:11; Romans 1:29–31; 13:13; 1 Corinthians 5:10–11; 2 Corinthians 12:20–21; Galatians 5:19–21; Ephesians 4:31; 5:3–5; Colossians 3:5–9; 1 Timothy 6:4–5; 2 Timothy 2:3–4; Titus 1:7; 3:3; 1 Peter 2:1; 4:3, 15; Revelation 9:21; 21:8; 22:15
    4. In much of what follows, I am indebted to Dale B. Martin, Sex and the Single Savior, pp. 37–50.
    5. In terms of the dominant gender stereotyping, “feminine-like” behavior on the part of men would be seen as “weakness,” while “masculine-like” behavior on the part of women would be viewed as “hybris.”
    6. Martin, Sex and the Single Savior, p. 39
    7. Martin, Sex and the Single Savior, p. 43.
    8. Martin, Sex and the Single Savior, pp. 38–43. To be sure, inclusion of arsenokoitai in a list of “vices” suggests that the root meaning has a negative connotation, but the basis for a connotation may be more complicated than it appears. Just as malakoi may be essentially “gynophobic,” arsenokoitai may also be “gynophobic” and even “misogynistic.” It may refer to males who treat other males like females by dominating or in some way—either literally or symbolically—emasculating them (the implication being, of course, that it is perfectly acceptable and even appropriate to treat females in this way).
    9. For discussion, see, e.g., Furnish, The Moral Teaching of Paul, pp. 67–72; see also pp. 58–67 and the entire chapter, pp. 52–82.
    10. “Answers to Your Questions.”
    11. Martin, Sex and the Single Savior, p. 57.
    12. Furnish, The Moral Teaching of Paul, p. 78.

    William O. Walker, Jr., is Jennie Farris Railey King Professor Emeritus of Religion at Trinity University in San Antonio, Texas where he served as a member of the faculty and as an administrator until his retirement in 2002. He is the author of Interpolations in the Pauline Letters (2001).

    Copyright © 2008 by Polebridge Press. All rights reserved.

  • BenV
    BenV

    Amen! ... and thanks. Even though I no longer see the Bible as a guidebook for living my life -- I appreciate you posting this.

    Ben

  • Balsam
    Balsam

    Your welcome Ben,

    I know many still believe in the bible as the word of God and I believe this information by a Biblical Scholar is important to present to them. It is time that people of faith quit rejecting folks who are gay, it is time to unite and embrace each other in love and respect.

    I picked up a book reciently by Dan Merchant called "Jesus Save Me From Your Followers" and it is outstanding in that it shows how Christians have alienated people by their inaccurate rantings on the bible. The book encourages asking the gay community to forgive those of us who are Christians who have hated them. Its' beautiful in its simplicity of the love Jesus taught.

    Ruth

  • BenV
    BenV

    Ruth! You are such a sweetheart! Thanks again.

    It's rational people like you who give Christianity a "good name."

    Ben

  • chickpea
    chickpea

    such a rationally developed thesis that brings balance to the often hysterical and hateful vitriolic misrepresentation of scripture that seems to cling to the issue of sexual orientation......

    thank you for bringing it to our attention

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Interesting and a complex issue but:

    Whenever the term "eunuch" is used, it refers to a gay male in the NT, essentially. Gays or "eunuchs" were recognized as being born that way, and basically references it as a "gift" that is, not being attracted to women as the average straight male is and thus wanting to eventually marry and have children. Instead, being free from this strong sexual urge for procreation that person has a chance to lead a more personal life with personal career goals, ideal for those who want to devote themselves to God and the study of the scriptures, thus it is called a "gift".

    MATTHEW 19:11

    11 He said to them: “Not all men make room for the saying, but only those who have the gift. 12 For there are eunuchs that were born such from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs that were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs that have made themselves eunuchs on account of the kingdom of the heavens. Let him that can make room for it make room for it.”

    Thus we must separate "gay" from "active homosexual." Being "gay" is considered a gift, but whether this means homosexuality is approved is another topic. In this context, being gay, that is not attracted to women, is to be used as an effective means to have a happy single life.

    JEWISH CULTURE: In Jewish culture, being a "eunuch" or having the gift, there was a context that men would be attracted to each other and would become "companions" with each other while leading their single lives, but not engage in sexual activity with each other, beyond normal affection expression, such as kissing or hugging. Paul was a eunuch and so was Jesus. Thus when the Bible talks about Jesus loving John, that's what it is talking about. Jesus loved John openly and everybody knew it and understood this to be a wholesome, loving relationship between two single eunuchs. That's why all the talk about Mary Magdalene being Jesus' wife is a farce. Mary Magdalene was substituted for John because it was clear John and Jesus were lovers, aesexual lovers or companions. So culturally, relationships between two gay men was understood and accepted.

    PAUL'S (ROVING EYE) PROBLEM: But also it was clear there was the predisposition of inappropriate sexual behavior between two males, obviously. Thus Paul, in particular was going through a difficult time with his gayness. It had something to do with perhaps involtary or inappropriate "gazing" at the wrong thing. Something the congregation ignored about him. In the gay setting, obviously this could mean perhaps what is called "crotch gazing" or perhaps going to the gynnasium to see naked youth exercising, etc. Everybody knew what was going on and that Paul was having this fight. He felt as though he was undergoing death. His body wanted to do wrong and his mind wanted to do right. Paul wanted God to remove this weakness from him that he called a "thorn in the side" but God's forgiveness was sufficient. What is important to note, though, is that being "gay" or a "eunuch" does have a different kind of challenge. The challenge to use being gay to remain single and celibate.

    JONATHAN AND DAVID: Another acknowledgement of a "soul mate" kind of relationship that can be enjoyed between two men is that of David and Jonathan. They even exchanged vows! They pledged their love to each other and David even said the love with Jonathan was better than that of a woman. Soo...David was a great warrier, definitely hetero, but he did play the flute, so....whatever. Fact is, in that culture close relationships could develop between two men and there was no criticism for not being attracted to women. As I noted, it was considered a gift if you were not attracted to women.

    OBSESSIVE SEXUALITY GOD'S CURSE ON GAYS: At some point in the context of gays and eunuchs, though, is this idolatry curse by God. Basically, some gay behavior is considered worship, that is, worship of the beautiful male or female, who become like gods. In that case, God greatly increases the sexual desire of these so they become obsessed. Thus we do find in the gay culture an obsession over youth and beauty and much gay focus is on that.

    For instance, a gay person may be lonely and want to have a relationship with someone. But are they going to want to have sex with someone unattractive, poorly dressed, old and overweight? No. They will pass, especially if they themselves are rather goodlooking. But if some really gorgeous young male is available, they start to pant and virtually lose control. Even the subculture of looking for other gays is called "cruising" since they are always looking for that beautiful, perfect male. Those, generally, who fall into that category might end up on the extreme promiscuous end of gay sexuality, driven by this obsessive desire they have. Thus they might cruise public places, have sex in public, engage in orgies at bath houses, having sex with multiple partners they've never seen. Sex itself becomes a god to them.

    But it's not actually their homosexuality or gayness here, but obsessive worship of the beautiful physical body. Thus that is something beyond simply being "gay."

    WHERE TO DRAW THE LINE: If aesexual "gay" relationships like the one Jesus and John had is permissible, then where is the line drawn with regards to sex? Well the RULE is that sex should be limited to marriage. So that alone makes sex between anyone not married, gay or straight, off limits. That is a very clear line.

    What if two gay couples make a vow of love for each other, like Jonathan and David did? Does that allow for some sexual expression? If so, what?

    ORAL VS ANAL VS MUTUAL MASTURBATION PER THE BIBLE: What we have available from the Bible as potential "guidelines" as far as the Bible's or God's view of this, for those seeking some input are the following that might influence us:

    1. The Bible says that a man is not to lie down with another man as he would a woman. That suggests anal intercourse, at least. But it could be argued that that would not include oral sex or mutual masturbation.

    2. GERBILING apparently considered excessive. We've all heard the story about how actor Richard Gere ended up at Cedars Sinai needing a gerbil to be extracted from his anus. Well he didn't invent that. In the Bible the axis Lords of the Philistines had this practice as well. So what Jehovah did was caused them to break out in huge piles (hemorrhoids). As part of their repentance, they made golden images of geraboas and the piles. Few people make the connection that that is what the Axis Lords had gotten addicted to. But at any rate, that apparently was frowned on by God as excessive. Obviously, though, this is not technically "sex", but we can see it as accessive.

    So that can be seen in the context of other sexual behaviors by some, especially gays, who do other things that are not sexual, technically. Such things as "fisting" where entire arms are inserted in the anus? That's not sex, that's just a manual colonoscopy, right? But is this Christian behavior? Or what about various instruments being used like dildos and vibrators? Or other sex toys.

    You know? What if two witness gay men, who ended up living with each and knew they were not to have sex with each other and understood there was to be no genital contact, instead compensated for that with S/M? Some people like to be tied up and spanked. That's not technically "sex", right? Or what if one submitted to anal penetration by some object by another not involving the genitalia of either? That's not really "sex" is it? Would it be considered "adultery" if the wife of an elder who liked a ministerial servant allowed him to insert a sex toy into her anus? Would they have to report that to the elders? It's not really "fornication" is it?

    But, if a woman goes to have a gynecological examination by her doctor, she is naked before him and he inserts all kinds of things into her vagina, including his fingers, etc. Is that "sex"?

    OBVIOUSLY, THE CONSCIENCE of each individual will make all the difference. If you THINK something is wrong and you do it anyway and violate your conscience, then it becomes a sin for you.

    THE BISEXUALITY OF THE NEW ORDER: Finally, looking far down the road to the post-millennium, with population growth at zero, there will be no need for procreation, families or marriage. But that doesn't mean people will not enjoy sex. They will be "like the angels" who enjoy sex with each other as an expression of intimate affection. Thus it is very likely that all will have some form of a unisexuality or androgynous sexuality as the angels do, where everyone has sexuality of both sexes. Ironically, that means that everyone after the millennium will be "homosexual" since everyone will be of the same sex. There will be no male and female. In particular, the female will no longer be the "weaker" sex in the human family, which has led to much abuse by men, obviously. Finally, everyone will be equal, sexually. And everyone will be in an open marriage, thus you can have sex with anyone you wish, any other human. Everyone will be married to everyone else.

    Do you realize how long it would take if there were 4 billion people on the planet to live with each one for one year and develop an intimate relationship with that person? Let's say a computer program made the combinations so that over time you'd be room mates with every other human on the planet so at one point every other human would know each other. Let's say you were assigned someone every other year, with one alternate year off to do your own individual thing? It would take 8 billion years just to go through that cycle the first time.

    I mention that, because that also tempers God's attitude toward homosexuality. Every angel is a "homosexual." This male-female, marriage rules is thus temporary. In the end, there will freedom of sexual expression between every human but it will be wonderful and "natural."

    NATURAL VS UNNATURAL: Does God's laws of nature teach us or guide us to what is natural, wholesome and proper vs what is not?

    KISSING?

    ORAL SEX?

    HETEROSEXUAL SEX?

    ANAL SEX?

    MASTURBATION?

    ANAL SPORTS?

    BONDAGE SPORTS?

    Whatever the debate out there, with Armageddon coming soon, things will change and be more defiitive when the millennium begins. There are lots of questions, but if someone violates their conscience then that sin is held against them. That at least should be a guide, and everyone must make their "own request to God for a clean conscience."

    JC

  • dinah
    dinah

    ANAL SPORTS???

    That's a new one on me, and I'm kinda jaded.

  • dwtnphotog
    dwtnphotog

    Yeah, I don't know if you'd call it a "sport"

  • scotsman
    scotsman

    I don't normally read the JCanon threads, but if this is what they're like I may start. He's gonna win the Turner Prize someday.

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Yeah, I don't know if you'd call it a "sport"

    Well, there was no real word for it. I thought of "anophilia" but then that has no common reference. It's just that some "stimulous" activity does not involve the genitalia but just the anus, such as fisting, inserting toys or other objects into the anus, which includes apparently gerbils, "love beads", dildos and other things. I had the concept of using "sports" because those who enjoy being urinated on or urinating on others politely call that "water sports". So it's not entirely a new concept for "exceptional" interests of some. Not touched at all, are other fetishes as well that are pseudosexual, like those who have a foot fetish. Also not mentioned are NUDISTS. I mean is that un-Christian? After all, there are tribes in the Amazon and in Africa where the genitalia and breasts are exposed totally. Some black tribes even paint their penises and wear nothing more than some beads around their waste, everything is literally hanging out in plain view. So some cultures are natural "nudists." Would it be wrong, therefore, for a Christian who wanted to be nude with others to enjoy that environment? It's not "sex". Also not mentioned is: POLYGAMY Polygamy is not condemned in the Bible at all. It might be discouraged but it was recognized as a legal institution. Yet modern Christian culture outlaws it as if the Bible does. So it's interesting gay marriage is being made legal in some places and polygamy, which is practiced by many foreign cultures, is not. Clearly some can argue the Bible condemns sex between those of the same sex, but no where does it condemn polygamy. So it's a big mess and the modern culture is often clueless regarding its own inconsistencies. "Anal sports" is a good catch-all though, considered side by side "water sports". "Water sports" are also called "golden showers." And there is also ANALINGUS also known as "rimming." Is that considered sex, where you literally lick the anus of a partner? Genitalia is not involved. Bottom line is, there are a LOT of areas of INTIMACY you can have that doesn't involve the genitalia of either participant. But is it excusable because of that? JC

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