by Narkissos 36 Replies latest jw friends
I am going to begin a thread on the influence of modern French philosophers on Western thought, especially given that many misunderstand your posts and their intent. :)
Oh please do! I didn't "get it" when I studied them in philosophy course, but now I think I might be starting to!
BTS
BTW, I saw what that post started with, and it wasn't Narkissos, but Bur....
Changed your mind? ;-)
Burn,
BTW, I saw what that post started with, and it wasn't Narkissos, but Bur.... Changed your mind? ;-)
lol...Don't flatter yourself, it was just a senior moment. ;)
HS
are you having a crisis of consciousness?
Consciousness and the world are related in a way that cannot be known through thought. Why not observe this relationship directly and make observations. Much of what is expressed in this thread is.......................unscientific.
Is consciousness overrated? We might just as well ask is humor overrated or is tea overrated?
the relationship between finite "consciousness" and whatever it is conscious of (including "oneself") as non-identical.
Yes. There is difference between the container/contents and the space within the container...one might say the container is the self, the space is consciousness, and the contents that which is percieved but that is not the container. Attention can be directed to the container, or to any contents, or to nothing.
A question that then arises is: is consciousness then attached to any entity when viewed seperate from a self? Does consciousness become an entity unto itself? And, if so, what is our relationship to this consciousness?
Is "consciousness" overrated?
I believe the evidence is clear that consciousness is a by-product of a unique phenomenon in the history of our (modern) universe: the huge and relatively rapid expansion of the cerebral cortex of the hominid brain duringthe last millions of years (the reason why is still under debate, some scholars think the rise of consciousness is interrelated with our social networking which gives an evolutionary advantage etc). Therefore, it's impossible that anything predating this unique event has consciousness in any form. Natura non facit saltum. The conscious originates from the non-conscious, there's no magic involved. In this case, the non-conscious are the bunches of neurons which by cooperation and increase in number lead up to this marvellous conscience. The duration of consciousness may be overrated I think, but the impact it has had on our planet (and maybe on the universe) is hard to overestimate.
I am fond of asking people the rather simple question, "When did you first exist?"
Usually, they will give me their birthdate.
I follow up by asking them pointedly, "What is the earliest memory you possess and at what age?"
I never get an answer earlier than two years old.
I tell them, "That FIRST memory is when you began to exist."
That is when the fun conversation begins.
Existence of the mind, the essential beingness of your self is the start of identity and it is simultaneous with memory, in my opinion.
Consciousness and memory are so closely allied that it is frightening to contemplate what Alzheimer's really means.
All values proceed from life itself. Without life there is no means by which any benefit can be derrived.
Concommitant with that is our consciousness of what life is. We can ride the wild surf of experience, rational comprehension and utility to sandbar of life's end--but, no value accrues unless we exist for ourselves in memory.
I place memory of consciousness above mere consciousness. But, only just so.
ninja
are you having a crisis of consciousness?
Of sorts, I guess.
Siddhashunyata
Much of what is expressed in this thread is.......................unscientific.
Thanks to that, your input is very welcome.
VoidEater
I have mixed feelings about the (Pascalian) understanding of consciousness as a "container" (as in, comprehension). Still, our (as biological individuals) relationship to consciousness is very much my issue. We enjoy it and suffer it. We feed it our own flesh and blood. We bear it and it won't leave us until we're dead (or Alzheimer's maybe).
Antonin Artaud's madness comes to mind: identity as robbery -- "God" (or consciousness) spoiling us of our own body.
hamilcarr
I must explain my relatively "fluffy" title I guess. It all stands in the adjective "bittersweet" I used in my OP. But not only from a subjective perspective (the pain of consciousness). Anthropomorphism intended, what if the universe "decided" that "consciousness" was not such a brilliant idea after all? What if we came to agree? (back to "mental suicide").
Terry,
I agree with you that memory is an integral part of consciousness (cf. my OP). Only I would add that through language and culture it is more than individual. Memories are also stories we tell ourselves (and they change with every telling). Sometimes we can hardly distinguish them from the stories others told us. Identity is elusive.
There are 2 kinds of consciousness
(A) For instance crisis of consciousness actually means, crisis of sincerity (the contrary of hypocrisy) or as an other example
(B) without proof there is still the benefit of the doubt.
So to me : consciousness can be overrated (for being consciousness) by missing experiences (= knowledge) and over racked by influences, but then we are only talking about self/influenced “perception” not “discernment”.
sincerity which is a form of reality/truth (A) on what we know but also (B)what we ignore, since we can’t know everything and rather be aware of that (and that’s a knowledge somehow).
Interesting.
I'm all the more glad I made my initial disclaimer: see, we French cannot separate consciousness from conscience and knowledge...
Nice to see you RAF.
