Could it happen here?

by BurnTheShips 65 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  BurnTheShips

  You are wrong about my point being a misdirection. On the contrary, it is my posts that have remained focused on your original points, and myself who has had to realign your points which seem to be all over the place.

  I have, among others, repeatedly attempted to help you understand that destroying the edifices of religion cannot destroy the ideology that created them and that exists beyond the visible. In fact where religion is concerned, such outward show of persecution only serves to strengthen the resolve of the religious. Cults and high control religions actually rely on this fact for growth.

  So, let me ask you again plainly, for you seem to shy away from answering this question which lies at the very essence of your thread : Does the banning of a religion equate to the destruction of its ideology?

  If your answer is 'yes', then you need to provide some sort of basis for explaining why. If you agree with me that 'no' is the answer, then the point of your thread is moot.

  "No". In no wise does this nullify the point of my thread. As long as an instance of an idea lives in a human mind, the ideology lives on. I have already agreed with you that banning in itself does not destroy, that something akin to genocide must be practiced. Please review my previous posts. My question is can the banning along with the brutality and repression happen here? That is a valid point of discussion.

  Burn, the waters are not being muddied by anyone but yourself, as your irrelevant comments regarding the indegenous peoples of the Aztec nations evidence. Spirtuality is not the exclusive domain of religions. The Communist manifestos and its philosophers in the late C19th all paid heed to this fact.

  The USSR was NOT removing what was spiritual from religion, as this is not possible. Ideologies cannot be destroyed by force, unless genocide is used. Please note that this has been my committed, unwavering and consistent point throughout this thread. You however, seem to be floating with the winds of the hour. ;)

  You made an incorrect statement regarding Mexican indigenous people, I briefly corrected you in my response. You don't like this (or don't agree), so this spawns a subthread. No muddying here on my part. If I were to make an incorrect statement as part of an on-topic response, I have no doubt that you would post something to correct it.

  You however, seem to be floating with the winds of the hour. ;)
• 

  hillary_step

  Burn,

  You made an incorrect statement regarding Mexican indigenous people, I briefly corrected you in my response.

  My statement was correct, your intervention was needless and ill informed. You were and are wrong, even about this issue.

  Let us clear this up once and for all, as you seem to be incapable of TRULY understanding any viewpoint but your own.

  I wrote:

  Any historical attempts, apart from Spains annihilation of the Aztec people which was complete, to force an ideology not to exist has failed, and will fail. In fact driving religion underground as did the USSR is arguably the way to produce a generation most dedicated to its cause. Once again, similarities with the expansion of Islam fundamentalism as a catalyst to what it sees as persecution is obvious.

  You then, completely ignoring the point of my post rushed over to your chief, and often suspect fund of knowledge Wikipedia, and wrote:

  You are mistaken, there were no Aztec people properly speaking, but a confederaqtion Nahuatl speaking peoples, the Mexica, from which the entire region took its name. The term did not even exist until the 19th century when Humboldt coined it.

  So, were there an Aztec 'people' or not. Of course there were.

  The Aztec people were....well let us see how your Wikipedia puts it shall we:

  Aztec is a term used to refer to certain ethnic groups of central Mexico, particularly those groups who spoke the Nahuatl language and who achieved political and military dominance over large parts of Mesoamerica in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, a period referred to as the Late post-Classic period in Mesoamerican chronology.

  So you see, my referring to the Aztec 'people', is not an incorrect conclusion. the Aztec people existed 'in certain ethic groups of Central Mexico' Can you see just how wrong you are? I doubt it Burn.

  You are incorrect more often than you are correct on this Board Burn, but lack the humility to either redress your errors or to learn from them.

  HS
• 

  Gill

  No! It will not happen here!

  People will not give up their 'disguise' or 'invisibility cloak' in the west that easily!

  'I believe in God' and therefore 'I must be a 'good' person' is not something people would give up easily.

  Just as 'I believe in God and he told me to invade Iraq' is an excuse that has been used by one 'religionist' and therefore it excuses him from everything that he might do wrong and gives him and automatic 'get out of jail card.'

  Ever wonder why so many incarcerated criminals find 'God'? Because God is their 'disguise' and 'invisibility cloak' and 'excuse' for suddenly having become a supposedly 'good' person!

  People do not give up something that makes them appear to be something they are not!

  Who doesn't want the ultimate supreme power of the Universe as their own and personal best friend?!
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  Just as 'I believe in God and he told me to invade Iraq' is an excuse that has been used by one 'religionist' and therefore it excuses him from everything that he might do wrong and gives him and automatic 'get out of jail card.'

  C'mon, you don't really believe Bush believes this, do you? He used the God card to get more support for the war. It only made him look like an idiot, so he stopped saying it. This man knows God had nothing to do with it.
• 

  Gill

  FHN - My point exactly! Of course he doesn't believe it! It's and excuse and a 'cloaking device' that allows people to appear something that they are not!

  In effect they are saying, 'You can't criticise me as my best friend is God and I'm religious so everything I do must be good, right and if not, at least they are for good and right reasons.' They don't believe it, they just 'use it'.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Burn

  It's going to happen here, if more and more people think blessings come from the government, as opposed to coming from God.

  The left think they can legislate fairness.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  You are incorrect more often than you are correct on this Board Burn, but lack the humility to either redress your errors or to learn from them.

  Those with no humility should not counsel humility in others.

  The "Aztec" as the common notion has existed, is incorrect. Also, while the Wiki article backs me up, I was informed by a recent book on the subject as I posted earlier. You can use it as an umbrella moniker if you like. You point was that the "Aztec" were exterminated. They were not and you are wrong.

  Proof that my reference and view is not the result of a sloppy wiki lookup but from reading on the subject:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/153604/2813928/post.ashx#2813928

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/154565/2829003/post.ashx#2829003

  The ethnic groups referred to as "Aztecs" live, there were plenty of full blooded Nahuatl speaking members of my old congregation. I was in the minority there, ethnically.

  We never called ourselves "Aztec."Not even the Spaniards called us Aztec. Aztec is the 19th century invention of one Englishman named Kingsborough and one American named Prescott.

  The word Aztec is consistently misused to only identify the Mexica as coming from Aztlan-Chicomoztoc while leaving out the other groups that settled in the valley of Mexico who are also of Aztlan origin.

  We must add that the Mexica never called themselves Aztecs, we say this because not one document (primary source) exists today where the Mexica called themselves Aztecs. The other names that the Mexica did call themselves were Culhua or Tenochca, which can be found in primary sources like the Florentine Codices. The Florentine Codices are a series of books written in the middle of the sixteenth century by a Spanish priest who was commissioned by the Spanish government to study the every day life of the Mexica, so that they could be destroyed.

  http://www.mexica-movement.org/mexicaeng.html

  This was your original statement:

  Any historical attempts, apart from Spains annihilation of the Aztec people which was complete, to force an ideology not to exist has failed, and will fail.

  I burnedyourships.

  BurnTheShips-What the legend of Cortes says he did when he was on his way to the conquest of Mexico.

  http://www.jstor.org/pss/335707
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  BurnThe Ships & Hillary.

  I can see that you both like a good fight. Ever thought of becoming Gladiators like me?

  Instead of fighting with words you could rip each other to shreds with an assortment of wonderful weapons. The hours are short but tiring. The best part is you get to dress up.

  You would both have to change your names, though, to something more aggressive like Brutus and Spartacus. Hillary is a definite no-no. I don't need a name because I am The Gladiator in the same way that God needs no name.

  We who are about to die salute you. See you in the arena.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  BurnThe Ships & Hillary.

  I can see that you both like a good fight. Ever thought of becoming Gladiators like me?

  Instead of fighting with words you could rip each other to shreds with an assortment of wonderful weapons. The hours are short but tiring. The best part is you get to dress up.

  You would both have to change your names, though, to something more aggressive like Brutus and Spartacus. Hillary is a definite no-no. I don't need a name because I am The Gladiator in the same way that God needs no name.

  We who are about to die salute you. See you in the arena.

  I am Albinus, and I train with the short sword and buckler. I will kick your ass. Burn
• 

  AuldSoul

  Almost all the Christians I know are athorist, azeusist, aquetzalcoatlists, ajanusists, araists, and lots of other adeists as well. There are thousands of instances of adeism among the Christians I know.

  I do not preach against Thor or Quetzalcoatl, however. Most of the atheists I encounter seem to advocate for a disbelief in God, which goes far beyond a personal lack of evidence or a personal lack of belief.

  But believers are in no short supply and belief won't be outlawed.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul