Could it happen here?

by BurnTheShips 65 Replies latest jw friends

DanTheMan

Whenever possible, the council places the clergy in the position of acting against their direct responsibilities by forcing them to implement policies designed to weaken and in time destroy religion...ignoring violations of law by the authorities.
I would say that the clergy are sealing their own fate given all the freaking rah-rah that so many of them have given GWB in spite of his administration having an underlying spirit of secrecy, thuggery, and arrogance - not exactly the most Christian of virtues. They shall inherit the wind.
Pistoff

Burn, that quote is from **1986**.

The Soviet Union is GONE.

Besides, theism is not religion; you seem afraid of the banning of open exercise of religion. Based on the complete insanity of religious expression in the 21st century, it does not seem unreasonable to at least have a discussion about limiting it.

As far as I know, no one can prevent you from believing is God, right? Or from doing good for the unfortunate?

But that is not what is fueling the anti-religion debate; it is extreme Islam, and "christian" preachers who think that Katrina was punishment for some imagined moral fault.

Such displays of religion are sickening, and invite ridicule and proscription.
hillary_step

Burn,
You seem to have focused on irrelevant issues rather than the ones that you originally raised and which I responded to.
Let me put you back on track.
1) You cannot force an ideology out of existence by means of brutality unless you wipe out the whole nation, as did the Spanish in South America. That is why the Aztec nation and its religion lay abandoned after the Spanish rape.
So, do you believe that a nation, say for example the USSR, can or could persecute religious ideologies out of existence?
2) Is 'spirituality' the same as religion?
I seperated the two, which you seemed to have an issue with. You have however been unable to defend your initial reaction, it seems. So, what do you say?
Can an athiest be a spiritual person, or do religions have exclusive rights to this word? Spiritual thinking goes way beyond the notions that religious organizations attach to it and way beyond religion itself.
Russia had suffered under religious tyranny for centuries, so it was a smart idea to remove religion from any form of political power, but it went about things in an ill-conceived manner and forced religions underground where fanaticism actually strengthened them - a la Iraq.
HS
BurnTheShips

Thanks for putting me back on track:
So, do you believe that a nation, say for example the USSR, can or could persecute religious ideologies out of existence?
It is possible. However, when something is so decentralized it can only take place using methods akin to genocide. If centralized, you take over the head, and you can control the body (ending Japanese emperor-worship at the end of WWII)
2) Is 'spirituality' the same as religion?
I need a good definition of spirituality and religion for the purpose of this discussion. I know that sounds like a cop out. Sorry. What if we accept these:
Spirituality, in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit, a concept closely tied to religious belief and faith, a transcendent reality, and God. Spiritual matters are thus those matters regarding humankind's ultimate nature and purpose, not only as material biological organisms, but as beings with a unique relationship to that which is beyond both time and the material world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality
and
A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion
I seperated the two, which you seemed to have an issue with. You have however been unable to defend your initial reaction, it seems. So, what do you say?
Using these, there is so much overlap that it is very difficult to separate the two for the purposes of our subject. How can you repress one without the other?
Can an athiest be a spiritual person, or do religions have exclusive rights to this word? Spiritual thinking goes way beyond the notions that religious organizations attach to it and way beyond religion itself.
If we associate Atheism with nonbelief in a nonmaterial dimension, or spirit, as it often manifests, then there is an issue here with being spiritual without believing in spirit wouldn't you say?
Russia had suffered under religious tyranny for centuries, so it was a smart idea to remove religion from any form of political power, but it went about things in an ill-conceived manner and forced religions underground where fanaticism actually strengthened them - a la Iraq.
That which you resist, persists.
Burn
BurnTheShips

I see no indication of that happening.
This is closer to me than to you. My family fled a Communist regime, not because of material things, but to avoid my father getting the communist-atheist brainwash he was going to be subjected to when he turned 15.
It can happen-and quickly too. No one would have thought it in early 1959 in Cuba.
Burn
serotonin_wraith

80% or so of Americans identify themselves as Christians at the moment so I think you're okay.
communist-atheist brainwash
I'll copy a chat we had a while back on this exact same subject.
Burn:
Children are indoctrinated regardless of whether their environment is religious or not. My family fled Atheist Cuba, I could tell you a couple of things about their attempted atheist indoctrination in the state religion.
Myself:
Sure, please tell me about it. Were you told 'There is NO god, don't even think there is one! Stop believing in God!'? You cannot have atheist indoctrination in the state religion. It's not to do with atheism. It's like saying you had fairy denier indoctrination in the state religion.
...
Burn:
Why the heck do you think so many people fled, my family included? They know all about atheist utopias.
Myself:

Atheism is a lack of belief. Not believing in something is not a belief. If I said I believed there was definitely no god, that could be seen as a belief system, but I don't say that. Is not believing in witchcraft a belief system? Is not believing in aliens a belief system? Is not believing in Zeus a belief system? No, it's just something people hardly think about. The only reason atheists have to be given a label is because there are so many theists.
Any indoctrination is bad, but did you have to go through it because the Cuban government didn't believe in witchcraft, aliens or Zeus? No. They just happened to not believe in witchcraft, aliens or Zeus. They just happened to be atheists too.
And I still don't know of one thing all atheists believe. There's no belief that ties every atheist together. Nothing. I wonder if this will have to be repeated in a few months again. I'm hoping it will sink in this time. Fingers crossed.
hillary_step

Burn,
Needless to say I disagree with both notions that you expand upon.
Where persecuting a religious ideology out of existence is concerned, the lessons of history are on my side. This is not possible without complete genocide. Social evolution, sound education, financial comfort and a hopeful future are the elements that undo religious thinking. The USSR were unable to provide the majority of those elements, so they sought to persecuate organized religion out of existence and this with the full weight of all the governmental apparatus. They failed. They merely drove religion underground where its proponents actually strengthened their resolve.
Given the tyrannical rule, with all its attached miseries that the Russian people had endured for centuries, the removal of religious thinking was imo a noble goal. As usual, the USSR, as is the US at present in Iraq, was incapable of recognizing that the use of force in these situations is counterproductive.
On your second point:
If we associate Atheism with nonbelief in a nonmaterial dimension, or spirit, as it often manifests, then there is an issue here with being spiritual without believing in spirit wouldn't you say?
Your Wikipedia (perhaps just a starting point for knowledge!) quote is selective. Read further and place the whole of the quote into the equation and you will see that you deliberately chose the most narrow understanding of what spirituality is - the Wikipedia entry iself bears witness to this narrow definition. As I have no axe to grind, well, my defintions are of course more accurate.
Art, music, poetry, nostalgia, love, creativity, ae all imbued with the spiritual, that is a focus outside the material. So you see, every person can be spiritual, whether they be religious or not. The USSR sought to reign in organized religion and according to Herbert Marcuse the essense of true spirit would then manifest itself. I have little sympathy with what happened to religious bodies in the USSR, they got all they deserved.
HS
BurnTheShips

Burn:
Children are indoctrinated regardless of whether their environment is religious or not. My family fled Atheist Cuba, I could tell you a couple of things about their attempted atheist indoctrination in the state religion.
Myself:
Sure, please tell me about it. Were you told 'There is NO god, don't even think there is one! Stop believing in God!'? You cannot have atheist indoctrination in the state religion. It's not to do with atheism. It's like saying you had fairy denier indoctrination in the state religion.
Cuba was a self declared atheist state. They indoctrinate the children with an atheist ideology. They specifically indoctrinated that there was no God. They repressed, brutally, expressions of religious faith. They still do in some instances. They have become more secular since the 90s however religion was outlawed in Cuba, Christmas was outlawed until the Pope's visit, it was prohibited to celebrate Easter, and that for much of the early 1960's through the late 1970's there where church burnings throughout the island, and many religious people "disappeared" without a trace. After the revolution private schools were banned and children were forced to go to state-run schools.
The 1992 constitution changed it to an officially secular state, this does not change the way many things are practically run on the ground.
http://atheism.about.com/library/irf/irf99/blirf_cuba99.htm
And I still don't know of one thing all atheists believe. There's no belief that ties every atheist together. Nothing.
I can counter with: And I still don't know of one thing all theists believe. There's no belief that ties every theist together. Nothing. But that would be nonsense.
All atheists affirm that no God or gods exist. They reject theism. That idea ties every atheist together, if they do not hold this idea, they are not atheist.
I repeat, atheism ties all atheists together. All atheists are atheist.
All theists affirm that a God or gods exist. They reject atheism. That idea ties every theist together, if they do not hold this idea, they are not theists.

I wonder if this will have to be repeated in a few months again. I'm hoping it will sink in this time. Fingers crossed.

Sheesh, you just don't get it do you?
Eyes Open

BurnTheShips: All atheists affirm that no God or gods exist. They reject theism. That idea ties every atheist together, if they do not hold this idea, they are not atheist.
Hi Burn. That's not the case. I'm an atheist, but I will not rule out the possibility there is a God. I merely have no specific belief in one myself.
BurnTheShips

Given the tyrannical rule, with all its attached miseries that the Russian people had endured for centuries, the removal of religious thinking was imo a noble goal.
This sounds suspiciously like "the end justifies the means".
Art, music, poetry, nostalgia, love, creativity, ae all imbued with the spiritual, that is a focus outside the material. So you see, every person can be spiritual, whether they be religious or not.
That is a bit of a misdirection. I have not talked about the banning or repression of any of these things, but of the banning of external (and also internal in many cases) spiritual expression of the religious type as what happened in Soviet Russia. They did not ban art, or poetry, or any of the things you describe. Instead they used these in the service of the state. There were Soviet artists, musicians, etc. Please don't muddy the waters, you know very well what I am talking about. They were removing what was spiritual in the religious sense and also directly working to extirpate any theistic belief in the populace.
Burn

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