PERSPECTIVE is largely a matter of everyday conditioning

by Terry 37 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Terry

  I love when some say they are "spiritual" and not religious. Many of them attempt to understand the universe
  and enlighten themselves, but others just mean that YOU CANNOT CHALLENGE THEIR VIEWS because it
  is a personal thing.

  Well, you hit the nail on the head.

  The Catholics only have to listen to the Majesterium of the Pope and Cardinals.

  The Protestants decide for themselves by going to the buffet table of divergent opinions.

  There is no actual there---there.

  You make it up as you go along and--if challenged---make up your hermenutics on the spot!

  Ahhhhh---religion. It is like any other fetish. It makes no sense specifically, yet--it gets the person suffering it very excited indeed!!
• 

  trevor

  Terry - Thank you for your eloquent and reasoned reply. I realize that we have drifted away from the original topic of this thread.

  The reason I talked about meditation was to point out that all thinking is a matter of conditioning. It is true that perspective is largely a matter of everyday conditioning. Our perspective is shaped as much by how we approach thought as the information we take in.

  The language we think in is also a matter of conditioning. An artistic person may explain something by drawing a picture. A writer will write an article and a mathematician will do sums because they can’t draw. Our thought process is very personal and is in itself a conditioned perspective of mind use. Everyone thinks that there way is the best. That’s because it is the best - for them.

  You liken meditation to turning on a TV or Radio tuning in-between stations and getting white noise. In other words: no content. The only reason machines have similarities is that they were invented by a human mind.

  Our mind is not a machine. A machine is not influenced by emotion. It does not self heal or grow. There is an intelligence in a living body that is not just accessed through a trained and reasoning mind. Meditation is about recognising what it is about us that is different to a machine that just habitually thinks.

  I know that you have a perspective on meditation, perhaps because it does not work for you. Or maybe the idea that it can have benefit, challenges the perspective you have developed in order to leave behind a troubled past and avoid being duped again.

  Most of us on this board can understand that, having once believed we possessed absolute truths. Now just when we thought we had given up absolute truths we find we have areas of resistance that are to us absolute truths.

  Terry I am not trying to covert you, or persuade you to surrender your mind to a white noise. I am just pointing out that meditation has benefited many people. You are not among them and do not wish to be. Many people believe that religion has benefited them. I think they are mistaken and do not wish to be among them. So I see where you are coming from.

  Imagine standing on a mountain side looking over a green valley as far as the eye can see.

  Feeling the breeze and listening to the sound of kestrels in the air. Watching the clouds move across the sky until you are free from thoughts about work or searching for solutions to problems.

  Until your mind stops analysing and correcting every fault in the world. Concentrating until your mind is empty of words and fully at one with this experience.

  After twenty minutes of silent wordless observation you start to walk back down the mountain.

  Twenty wasted minutes that could have been employed by the chatter of the rational Mind? Or a wonderful moment of reality away from the mad world that we have fashioned into shape and then mistaken for reality?

  Your mind feels clear and calm. Suddenly the answer to a long standing problem pops into you mind without being asked to and you find you are singing to yourself and the lyrics of the song have meaning to you.

  Maybe you will find time to do this again. If not up a mountain then in a garden or just a comfortable chair at home recalling the experience.

  Maybe you know more than you think you know...
• 

  Caedes

  Without wishing to de-rail a very interesting topic even further, I have been pondering the reality of sharing a dinner table with a pissed off monkey no matter how restrained it's head may be. I would think the act of trying to take the top of it's skull off is not going to improve it's mood. There is also the question of the smell, since I can't imagine that half a dozen monkeys simultaneaously evacuating their bowels would improve any dinner party no matter how good the brains taste.
• 

  R.Crusoe

  It's so true!

  And the extent to which what is accepted as everyday conditioning and is not implicates on all manner of lifes events!

  Lets take a ridiculously simple example amongst the many ythat may befall an individual even in the course of one day!

  For example, a person sat in a bar who misunderstands a comment you make or even due to your hardly hearing them due the loud music, may well over react at what they consider a lack of something or other - when the reality is it's just a misunderstanding!

  But if you are also labelled as having some kind of C-PTSD or whatever, their anger is acceptable anger - albeit misplaced and presumptuous - though if you were to react to their flawed reaction, yours would be due to classic symptoms of your disorder - one of which is anger or reaction to ordinary conversational situations!

  So individuals perspectives grossly over influence very basic everyday events and often get used by power hungry humans to validate their own status in the human race at the expense of others who may in fact be far more empathetic, understanding souls who have to learn how to be more like the power hungry , but maybe in a passive agressive sense, in order to survive their environment - which is another classic symptom of C-PTSD! And the individual is going to have to be even stronger with time as the cumulative drain on their inner core grows ever larger due to 'unpopularity' conditioning replicating even more sever circles of self doubts!

  So maybe those exhibiting C-PTSD are often displaying signs of survival techniques amongst an over sensitised general public which self fulfills their stereotyping of you as having what you may have but viewed by them as a grossly magnified negative essence which actually reflects in their own behaviour more than the one isolated as having the condition!

  I'll cease at this point as I think those thoughts may take some thinking about!

  Hope that made some sense as to the point I'm making?
• 

  Caedes

  I feel I should post something a little more worthwhile to make up for my earlier posts!

  Trevor,

  How is what you describe any different from just spending twenty minutes relaxing (in whatever way works for you), presumably meditation is (or claims to be) more than just spending time relaxing and unwinding?

  There is an intelligence in a living body that is not just accessed through a trained and reasoning mind. Meditation is about recognising what it is about us that is different to a machine that just habitually thinks.

  Is there some kind of evidence to back up this claim? What machine is there that just habitually thinks? Habitual thinking is what the brain is designed to do.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  Trevor. You intrigue me. I want to learn this meditation you speak of. How do I begin? Is there a book to teach me?

  Burn
• 

  R.Crusoe

  Meditation - my feeling!

  At many times in my life I have found it a barren reasoning place to attempt to get or discover!

  But if you have a female who is into who you are and into nature based spirituality, she will open up your soul!

  I havent experienced it but have glimpsed it and know it exists - like so much else in my sad situation -lol!
• 

  nicolaou

  Habitual thinking is what the brain is designed to do.

  Designed? You got any evidence to back up that claim Caedes
• 

  trevor

  Caedes

  You asked -

  How is what you describe any different from just spending twenty minutes relaxing?

  People will think they are relaxing but their mind will still be running words through it. Meditation is about being aware without words.

  You asked me to explain what I meant by saying that meditation is about recognising what it is about us that is different to a machine that just habitually thinks.

  This was poorly worded. I did not mean that machines think but rather that each of us is not just a thinking machine.

  ………………………………........

  Burn the Ships

  There are many books on the subject but beware!

  I am not advocating mediation as a means to enlightenment, salvation or discovery of a soul through a guru or religious congregation-man.

  I have a very secular view of the benefits of meditation.

  trevor
• 

  Caedes

  Designed? You got any evidence to back up that claim Caedes

  Sheesh, you make one mistake!

  Habitual thinking is what the brain has evolved to do.

  Happy now? (you would think being a fully paid up member of the atheist tuesday night club would leave me exempt from such charges )

  Trevor,

  I can see that properly relaxing and taking your mind off of current problems is a valuable thing to do, I just can't see that assigning a spiritual name to it makes a difference.

  Perhaps I am very lucky that I can lose myself in another activity and choose not to think about a problem, I find having a focus in another activity helps. If I had to just sit and 'not think' I would end up just going over whatever was on my mind.

  I suppose I can see that for some people, spending time doing nothing and trying 'not to think' might help them but I am very wary of the claims that some people make for meditation.

  but rather that each of us is not just a thinking machine.

  What are we if we are not just thinking machines? I would say that is precisely what we are, everything about who we are as people originates in the brain. Damage or alter that brain and you alter who we are. Our brain is our evolutionary advantage, it is why we are the dominant species on this planet. It seems to be the case that regularly mental stimulation helps keep us healthy, whereas the language that meditation uses seems to be mental stagnation. (and I mean literally the words, no condemnation of meditation or it's practitioners)

  To be honest I haven't made my mind up and perhaps it is just that I worry it is just a short step from meditation to ear candles and having my chakras aligned.