by little_Socrates 102 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I know quite a few atheists and none of them believe the world "should" be free of suffering. Quite the opposite. The world is as it is. We can either accept it, the pleasant with the unpleasant or we can refuse to accept it the way it is and "suffer" (The suffering in this case is caused by the expecting something different than reality and being disappointed when the world is not the way we want it to be).
I think Cofty had it right. You are arguing a strawman.
I haven`t read all these pages so forgive me if what I say is already covered .
You say :Do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad ? Isn`t good only good because we know what bad is ?
You seem to suggest that GOD foreordained good and bad for Adam and Eve regardless of their actions .
So in effect they had no free will.
Isn`t good only good because we don`t know what bad is ? ...That is absolute rubbish ,a stupid statement.
smiddy
Ruby,
So I see you still haven't been able to answer any of the points I made.
Which is more sublime and beautiful? Bone cancer in children, ebola or the Asian Tsunami? Does it become more beautiful as more people die or is it the suffering they endure before that? Since you found that my post makes you laugh out loud, which form of suffering makes you laugh the most?
How much suffering would please you and your god?
There isn't an issue about whether there is value in suffering, I suspect you would struggle to find many theists that would support your position.
I can't imagine why you would think that David Cameron is interested in doing anything other than selling off the NHS piecemeal. Given your love of suffering then I imagine that four more years of the tories demonising and punishing the poor is right up your street.
And all I am doing is highlighting the full implications and horror that is at the heart of the world view you are espousing.
I am saying that there is value in suffering in that it is those who suffer and those who empathize with them who fight hardest for change.
Wait, so let's use an example here. You're saying that there is value in, say, child sex trafficking because it could stop some child sex trafficking later? You're saying that rape is OK because people might try harder to stop future rape?
To address the OP,
Suffering is merely part of the human condition, as is bliss. It's not going away. Although I would love to live on a Star Trek planet Earth, that will never be my reality.
We can choose to let suffering make us bitter, or conversely. let it teach us humility or other qualities of strength. It doesn't mean we have to like it. I guess I'm speaking of physical suffering, but same could apply to emotional - you are suffering emotionally? Seek healing, and learn and grow as you follow that path.
I agree talesin
Suffering, along with pleasure is part of the human condition, it just is. Especially when we are talking about physical suffering, much of which is unavoidable (sickness, aging, dying).
However, emotional suffering is often brought about by fallacious beliefs and is often self-induced. Of course, some physical suffering is self-induced and avoidable too. However, it could be easily argued that many of the behaviours that cause self induced physical suffering are brought about by erroneous beliefs as well.
wait, so let's use an example here. You're saying that there is value in, say, child sex trafficking because it could stop some child sex trafficking later? You're saying that rape is OK because people might try harder to stop future rape?
viv - please see my previous post, copied and pasted here for you as what you are describing is suffering that is made by human exploitation then dismissed. examples are the the recent child abuse scandals here in the UK - the children and teenagers were dismissed as child prostitutes and nothing was done for decades.
I understand your pov Caedes that there is no divine plan and that things just happen, that the universe is oblivious to its effects. But disagree that things just happen when this is applied to suffering as I feel that suffering is always made and that unless we can appreciate how it is made we won't be able to address it, to lessen it, to understand how power is being used to keep people suffering. And this, little_socrates, imo, is the value of owning and naming suffering and tracing its history and in doing so make it sublime if not beautiful - sublime as horror that needs to be witnessed to be overcome.
So I am disagreeing with you caedes on a very fundamental level in order to to show that there is the possiblity of dismissing suffering and by doing that allowing power that is very exploitive to go unchecked. I note your points that follow and agree but still feel that I need to make the point above because I object strongly for the above reason and for the reason that you are putting God in the picture alongside engineering feats as God is often the vicitms of made (whether natural or man made) sufferings' only hope for change. edit: I think all our political leaders are aware of this so I won't say only Ed Milliband is although I'd like to - at the moment anyway
viv - please see my previous post, copied and pasted here for you as what you are describing is suffering that is made by human exploitation then dismissed
Yeah, that post was all over the place and didn't answer anything.
A simple yes or no, please. Is there value is child rape?
As a follow up question, if there is value is suffering, then please explain why more suffering doesn't equal more value. In other words, if suffering has value, then it follows that more suffering should mean more value, so why shouldn't there be maximum suffering all of the time?
viv - any rape is a terrible crime - child rape is the worst form of exploitation. On the other hand a child who has been raped is not worthless and used up although they may feel that way are they?
but yes a follow on from a strictly economic and acquisitive attitude would teach that more suffering would equal more value and that therefore people should create more suffering for themselves. I'm not supporting that view at all.
But that trap is very easy to fall into if the hierarchy are saying it is good for you to suffer so keep suffering and keep suffering quietly especially when we are exploiting you. I am saying the opposite which to never suffer exploitation quietly.
