A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

by little_Socrates 102 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Viviane

  viv, atheists who only want to see suffering in moral terms have had their say

  First, you are saying this as if I get a "turn" and you get to decide when it's over. That's not reality. You've no ability to determine when anyone has had their "say".

  Suffering does not always require moralizing. Why can't we see suffering in terms of good and and bad.

  That's exactly what we are talking about. You are saying there is value in suffering, some sort of good. Child rape is suffering, therefore you are claiming there is value in child rape, or a child having leukemia or drowning in a tsunami.

  That is a disgusting view.

  Child rape is very bad and victims need to be heard. Perpetrators need to be brought to justice. I have said this all along.

  Yet you claim there is value in it.

  But shifting the terms of this discussion does not mean that I think child rape is good or even neutral but it means that we can ask if anything of value can even come out of something so horrendous. many victims can say yes.

  Oh, no, dear. No. You're attempting to equate and conflate how people choose to react to a bad thing happening with your claim that there is value in the bad thing itself. Those are distinct and separate items.

  You have not backed off of your claim that there is value in suffering. Child rape is suffering, therefore you claim there is value in child rape.

  parents who suffer for their children - ie. up all night with a crying baby

  That's not suffering unless the parents have the same disgusting and morally deranged view of the world that you do and are hurting the baby because they think suffering has value.

  the tsunami has been mentioned. The story of how an entire family survived after clinging to life was truly heroic.

  It's also utterly irrelevant to your view that child rape has value.
• 

  Ruby456

  viv you are twisting what i said as well as taking it out of context and then replying to something dreadful you have created in your own mind.
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  Ruby456

  a chimera to be exact - a dreadful image that atheists see when they think they are confronted by a believer so I guess this is not just in your own mind but something created by the intelligentsia arm of modern atheism. It is an illusion and here you are imposing it on me. dreadful.
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  Caedes

  So, repeating back to you your own words is dreadful, but bone cancer in children is sublime and beautiful. Got it. I imagine that more rational theists must be ashamed of you and your opinions.
• 

  Viviane

  viv you are twisting what i said as well as taking it out of context and then replying to something dreadful you have created in your own mind.

  You wrote that suffering as value and you've not denied it. Child rape is suffering, therefore, according to you, it has value. Feel free to deny that.So far you haven't.

  a chimera to be exact - a dreadful image that atheists see when they think they are confronted by a believer so I guess this is not just in your own mind but something created by the intelligentsia arm of modern atheism. It is an illusion and here you are imposing it on me. dreadful.

  Imposing it on you? You're the one that said suffering has value. You were simply provided an example of suffering that you think has value.

  That you refuse to deny your own words while attempting to blame others for them is disgusting, of course, but not nearly as bad as thinking child rape has value.
• 

  Ruby456

  its like you two are having a conversation with yourselves - so now who believes in imaginary beings? Caedes and viv
• 

  talesin

  You said there is value in suffering. I am asking you if there is value in child rape. Why are you refusing to answer whether or not rape, a form or sufering, has value?

  Seriously? You are using this as a form or argument or debate?
  
  Viviane, you are FULL OF IT. I have no stake in this debate, or whatever it is,,,

  However, I see you use this bullying tactic over and over again. You need to be called out, and where are the admins? Let's reign this bully in, just a tad bit, perhaps?
  
  ack!
• 

  talesin

  fyi, Viviane, that is called a "straw man" argument ......... I leave it to YOU to figure it out.

  pphhttt!
• 

  Giordano

  A certain level of human suffering can at times create focus or a totally different perspective that may prove to be beneficial. One might step or run more carefully after experiencing a twisted ankle but there is a wide range of difference between a painful experience like that and losing one's entire leg.

  The degree of suffering caused by Abuse, rape, murder, beatings do not provide a teachable moment other then there are terrible people and situations in this world and in all likelihood you will be impacted by your experience for as long as you live.

  Moving this question back to those who approach human suffering with a God in mind.......... Steven Weinberg offers this thought:

  Remembrance of the Holocaust leaves me unsympathetic to attempts to justify the ways of God to man. If there is a God that has special plans for humans, then He has taken very great pains to hide His concern for us. To me it would seem impolite if not impious to bother such a God with our prayers.
  
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  Ruby456

  talesin - the reasoning seems to follow the line that if you are not with us then you must be against us and if you are against us you must be a theist. I'm more surprised that Caedes seems to be adopting this line of thought than viv.

  as to viv's arguments if she had followed my pov without bias then she would clearly see that I am actually arguing the opposite of what she accuses me of here as i am most definitely not arguing that there is value in suffering itself although little socrates may be arguing from that pov.

  here is what viv accuses me of and I thought i was being very clear that I am not arguing this at all

  Oh, no, dear. No. You're attempting to equate and conflate how people choose to react to a bad thing happening with your claim that there is value in the bad thing itself. Those are distinct and separate items.