Now I know the birthday issue has been laboured to death, but... as a 17 year old living in a non-witness family,it's kinda hard for me to never question beliefs. Now, i've spent the past hour or so scanning through the 07 watchtower library on my family pc, and havven't found a definitive answer, so would appreciate some input on this.
Basically: The Bible shows Bday's in a unfavourable light, the pagan roots have been highlighted, and the worldly side too, i know all this. Yet i can't help having a nagging doubt that, well, some things aren't clear. The Bible highlights that numerous celebrations are acceptable (a harvest, a circumcision etc) without pagan roots.. but what about for example:
Celebrating the fact someone is 18, not as a birthday in the "its that time of year again" sense, but as the fact they are now an adult? now legal?
or a party. what about a party that's for a birthday (not on the day), doesn't require all the gift giving and cake eating etc, just the occasion being used as an excuse for a party?
or being invited and brought to a party of somoene you do not personally know, only to find that the occasion is a birthday?
special birthdays? (double digits, 16/18/21 (depending on area), big numebers like 50?)
Being a casual observer at others, just there for the party etc?
Can i recieve gifts, if people simply wish to give them, just out of tradition or habit, rather than for the birthday sake (my family on one side is aware of my beliefs but like to give a gift after the date anyways)?
what about things like Debuts? in some cultures where it's a big deal?
Also what about aniversaries/birthdays of things.. clubs.. places etc?
I've always wondered these things, and could do with some light being spread on them. Though i'm not exactly a practicing witness due to misplaced priorities (i'll admit i have them badly) i do try not to do things displeasing to Jehovah, and would appreciate any insight.
Thanks in advance
ps. i realise i may have repeated a few times, so sorry..
Birthday Parties etc (some questions)
by juswondering 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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juswondering
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glenster
Rom.14 gives holidays as matters of personal conscience. Some wanted to cele-
brate Mosaic law feasts. Paul could have worried that it would have the conno-
tation of a need to be under Mosaic law, which is over for Christians, but
didn't. Whether you celebrate Mosaic law feasts or not, just know it's optional
and make sure your faith is strong either way.Despite the JWs leaders alleging that certain things have pagan connotations
and should be avoided with blanket bans, 1 Cor.8-11:1,17-33 parallel an idol
temple and a meal offered by an idolator with the Lord's Supper to show that the
things per se aren't important, whether or not you have strong faith and worship
the one true God is in either kind of situation:The common meat in Corinth came from idol temple sacrifices. If you thank God
for everything, including whatever the temple is made of and the animal used for
the food, before you eat, you're not an idolator. If you're an atheist and eat
at the Lord's Supper, you're still an atheist. Christians don't have off-limits
foods and such. Just have strong faith in either situation. Other than that,
Paul recommends circumstantial abstinence if it comes up that you can't eat
without giving someone the mistaken idea that you favor idolatry. (If you can
tell them you worship the one true God, do that and dig in.)If your faith is weak and you can't think of a food or holiday without making
a non-Christian connotation, then don't indulge in it. An irony of the JWs
leaders' stance is that it's the stance of someone whose faith is weak, yet they
want to be considered to be of a literal 144,000 of exceptional faith.Col.2:16-23 reaffirms those ideas about Christians not having taboo foods and
holidays--just have faith in Jesus.Birthday celebration isn't known to be advocated by the early church leaders.
Some followers commemorated the martyrs on the anniversaries of their deaths--
their "birth" into a better life--Natalitia. The church fathers lived in a day
when Christians were a minority in a largely pagan culture, one in which you
could be executed for being Christian and not worshipping the emperor. Some
church leaders wanted to encourage Christians to have days to commemorate the
days the martyrs held to their faith unto death, the resurrection (later Eas-
ter), and the last supper, which were more specifically Christian things com-
pared to birthday parties, which were more general things.Where the JWs leaders' copped their stance:
The JWs leaders' stance was taken from an early 200's AD opinion by Origen,
who has a bad opinion about birthday parties which he backs up by noting that
the Pharaoh and Herod having the only birthday parties noted in the Bible and
that someone's head was chopped off at each. (Gen.40:20-22; Matt.14:6-10) Ac-
cording to Wikipedia, "Origen denounced the idea of celebrating Jesus' birthday
'as if he were a king pharaoh.' He contended that only sinners, not saints,
celebrated their birthday."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChristmasIt sounds like Origen didn't like the idea of Natalitia, or, more likely, that
while Christians were a minority, there were cultural trends of the time gener-
ally associated with birthday parties, possibly getting drunk or even false wor-
ship ("king pharaoh"-style?), which caused Origen to associate it with sin to
avoid. This could account for someone from his time and place discouraging such
a celebration or festival for the birth of Jesus, a stance which to many of us
seems more than a little curious.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htmAs it says in "Why December 25?" by Elesha Coffman at the next link, "Not all
of Origen's contemporaries agreed that Christ's birthday shouldn't be cele-
brated, and some began to speculate on the date (actual records were apparently
long lost). Clement of Alexandria (c.150-c.215) favored May 20 but noted that
others had argued for April 18, April 19, and May 28. Hippolytus (c.170-c.236)
championed January 2. November 17, November 20, and March 25 all had backers as
well."
http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/newsletter/2000/dec08.html -
logic
The trouble with society is that they try to associate one thing with another. Someone was killed during a birthday party so therefore the birthday party was bad. The only was that would make any sense would be if killing someone was a necessary part of the celebration.
Jws do alot of things that pagans used to do and still do. The pagan nations had feasts and killed people during the feast, but yet the isrealites had feasts and so did the christians. Pagans have wedding celebrations and so do jws. I guess if you really thought about it pagans do alot of things that jws do.
The problem with jws is they don't think about how stupid the whole thing is. It only started with Rutherford who was a nut anyway, just to make jws different from everybody else. The society hangs on to some of the crazy crap that rutherford made up but most of it is now considered apostate.
When any thinking person researches the society, they begin to realize just how confused and mixed up all the teachings really are.
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juswondering
So, what people are getting at is that it's a personal choice and is kinda open to interpretation?
depending on a person's own mental fortitude/faith etc whether or not we do such things?
Because personally i still am of the opinion that if it's stemming from pagan beliefs etc, it's bad, which is why i'll never agree with christmas (the idea might be something meant to be good, but the whole concept is pagan to the core as i can see). But, basically the gist is that it's personal choice as long as ou feel that you feel you're faith is strong enough?
Can i ask, by the way, what the religion/faith/set of beliefs for the people answering my question is? Not that i have a problem whether you're pagan/muslim/JW or catholic. It's just something i was wondering, as there is a lot of anti-jw/wts stance here, but then some people still seem to share the beliefs. and thanks a lot btw. -
juswondering
sorry to bump, but any chance of some further insight? even if it's by private message.
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Sirona
Hi and Welcome,
You can find out about people by clicking on their username on the left of the screen, some people have profile information on there.
Because personally i still am of the opinion that if it's stemming from pagan beliefs etc, it's bad,
OK well you'd better stop using the calendar and using the names for the days of the week. They are pagan in origin. For example, January was named after Janus the God of beginnings. See this link: http://www.calendar-origins.com/calendar-name-origins.html
Also other practices that the JWs say are OK are pagan. For instance, wedding rings, the white dress at the wedding, the best man, cutting the cake etc. See here:
The tradition of wedding cakes is a very old one indeed. In ancient Rome, wedding guests would break little cakes of grain over the bride's head to shower her with blessings of life and abundance. As time went by, people began to pile the cakes and have the couples kiss over them to ensure fertility. Eventually, the piling of the cakes turned into the traditional tiered wedding cake of today.
Cutting the cake together is also a potent symbolic act. As a form of the Great Rite, the cake represents the feminine traits of nurturing and life-giving while the knife symbolizes the male phallus. This boosts the fertility wishes and solidifies the joining together of male and female energies.http://www.katiehodges.com/TheRisingWind/Midsummer2003/wedding.html
Bridesmaids and ushers have their roots in Roman law which prescribed that ten witnesses be present at a wedding to fool evil spirits who, it was believed, were in attendance at marriages with the purpose of causing mischief and disharmony. The bridesmaids and ushers were instructed to dress identically to the bride and groom, in order to confuse the evil spirits who presumably would then not know who was really getting married.
http://www.hudsonvalleyweddings.com/guide/customs.htm
Also JW's recently said that it was OK to use Pinatas at parties, despite the pagan origins. They said that what matters is whether people consider it to be pagan, and since they don't, it was OK.
You see the trouble is that JWs have double standards. They also have too many rules and make Jesus's yoke neither kindly nor light.
Sirona
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Sirona
Also here is a thread where I quote the JWs saying that Pagan customs are OK as long as people don't consider it to be pagan. You can always use this watchtower reference to explain why you celebrate your birthday.
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shopaholic
There was recent post that mentioned recent article published this year that addresses this issue. I'll see if I can find.
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carla
If jw's are not supposed to have anything to do with things that have pagan origins, why do they continue with the wt? The wt has it's roots in pyramidology, numerology and phrenology as well as being a superstious bunch as a whole.
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juswondering
Thanks a lot for the replies people.
I'll take it all in mind and read the articles etc.
Thanks.