by Tuesday 122 Replies latest watchtower bible
Is External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of infinity (which we can never quite see but see into) also External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of Life (which we can see into but never quite trace to infinity) and is the contemplation of both External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of its Causation -or God (which we can never quite crystalize in thought) ?
And if you have an answer please could you explain the question to me - even though I'm the one asking?lol.
I
For example Zeus was the God of thunder and the sky, Osiris was the god of the underworld only, niether claimed being the creator. We already ruled out the flying spaghetti monster because his creator admitted he was a parody of religion, ditto with the pink unicorn, We know the origins of Santa and he never claimed to be the creator, and so forth and so on.
I don't think we did rule out the Flying Sphaghetti Monster entirely. If you read the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, in that interview the prophet of the Flying Spaghetti Monster church was only following the "Eight I'd rather you didn'ts" which Mosey took down. Religion is religion no matter how old it is. Just to show how ridiculous this argument is of "claiming" creatorship. I now claim that I created the universe, and more so I have put all the laws of nature into play to seemingly minimalize my role in the universe. No one on here has met me, I could be human just as much as I could be a beam of energy which has taken control of an identity on a message board. I question God's authenticity in order to test believers.
A claim of creatorship, is a claim of creatorship no matter how old it is. Now the creator could be God, it could be Tuesday who posts on the ex-Jehovah's Witness message boards. Claiming creatorship doesn't make that deity anymore a creator than all the others out there (and if you think I'm parodying religion with this post, read my claim I'm only doing it to test believers).
The argument that God could be an omnicient being that just set about the creation of the Universe then let everything go it's merry way, I can't find fault in that argument. I don't know why anyone would want to worship that, it would be like a kid looking up to the father who abandoned his pregnant mother before he was born. Sure he dropped the seed, but he wouldn't be responsible for anything the kid grew up to be. God might as well be a sperm doner to the universe. Once again if this is proof of God, it is really just an argument for the creator, it does not prove that any of the creator God's in creation myths around the world are the actual creator. It's basically saying "There is a God, but everyone's wrong." I think we just took a left turn from what I was hoping with the post. But it's interesting none-the-less, can't wait to see more.
Hi Lilly
Thanks for the clarification on Allah. I admit I don't know much at all about Islam. Its interesting that you see your god as the same as the god of the muslims. I'd agree and I wonder why follow one and not the other?
Thanks for the other lists of Gods but while it is claimed that each one created some part of the earth, it is not claimed that any of them created everything in the universe.
Not true. I don't know how you can make such statements. Honestly, it appears that the facts mean nothing to you.
Many creation myths suggest that the god (whoever it is) created everything which exists. Just a few examples are:
The Zulu god known as Unkulunkulu , is the Zulu creator. He created everything that is.
In Greek mythology Chaos existed in the beginning and gave birth to everything else.
In earlier Vedic thinking, the universe was created by Hiranyagarbha (here interpreted as 'the golden embryo') or by Prajapati who was born from the Hiranyagarbha (here interpreted as 'the golden womb')
Ptah was eternal and everlasting, and he spake the world and all the gods into existence, in a similar manner to Judaeo - Christian belief about their concept of God .
Sirona
Sirona,
Thanks for that information. I will have to do further research on those Gods because I never heard of them.
About Allah, The Muslims trace their heritage back to the God of the Old Testament by way of Ismael, who was the son of Abraham and the one sent away by Abraham after Isaac was born. Ismael's mother was Abraham's maidservant who got pregnant before Sara. Ismael and his mother were sent away because Ismael poked fun of Isaac.
Ismael was really the founder of the muslim faith. He bringing with him the OT stories about the Creator God that the Jews worshiped. Mohammed who many believe was the founder of the Muslims actually was not. He was a prophet who already worshiped the Abrahamic God but he wrote other Holy Books that the Muslims today use "in addition" to the OT teachings that came from Judaism.
So Yes, really the Abrahamic God of the OT is worshiped by 3 major religions; Judaism, Islam and Christians. But we differ greatly in which Holy books are inspired, interpretation of scripture and especially about whom Christ was. Both Muslims and Jews reject the trinity of Christianity because they believe God is "ONE". And both reject Jesus as the Son of God. However, both accept Jesus as an actual historical person and believe he was a great prophet.
Anyway, if these 3 major religions would stop trying to prove they have the only correct interpretation of scripture, we could focus on the fact that we essentially worship the same God and maybe be peaceful with one another.
Now, that being said, I will definately be pm'd by my fellow christians to "correct" my view.
Most religious fighting is due to misunderstanding the others person's belief. That is why I have looked into the other major religions in the world. It has helped me be more tolerant of others. Peace, Lilly
Is External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of infinity (which we can never quite see but see into) also External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of Life (which we can see into but never quite trace to infinity) and is the contemplation of both External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of its Causation -or God (which we can never quite crystalize in thought) ?
I'll take a stab at this if you don't mind. For the infinity I could use the number system in showing infinity, we can't see infinity but we can see it's cause a lower number or a higher number. With the law of conservation of energy we see that energy cannot be created and cannot be destroyed which leads to the conclusion energy is infinite because it would have to had always been there to be used to be harvested into other items. We can logically conject infinity due to these examples (and more I'm sure). External, Observable, Verifiable evidence of life can be shown but it doesn't show External, Observable, Verifiable evidence of a God. Garbage land fills could form into caves in a thousand years, it did have a cause (people dumping their garbage in a certain place) but in a way it didn't have a cause too. People dumping their trash somewhere was not done with the express purpose of creating that cave. People could go into that cave in a thousand years and postulate that the cave is proof of a creator but in reality it's just proof of hap-hazard dumping of waste. Here in the example the people visiting the cave are using the same God of the Gap principle, they don't know the cause of the cave and attribute it's amazing existence as unobjectionable proof of God. They're wrong in this instance, we don't have the documentation for the proof of the universe, it could be God just as much as it could be that Earth was the interplanetary dumping grounds.
This reminds me of the underwear gnomes in south park, "Step One: Collect Underwear, Step Two: *Blank*, Step Three: Make Money". Infinity exists, Life exists, *Blank*, God created life. To even use an example from the bible, I point to Thomas. This man knew Jesus personally, he saw him die, he heard first hand stories of the resurrection, but didn't believe it until he literally saw the resurrected body of Jesus and had to physically touch him in order to believe. Us non-believers (going back to my previous post I still created the universe I'm posting to test you) are not asking for anything that God didn't provide to Thomas. I somehow doubt Thomas would believe in the "could be", but he's considered a righteous man. I apologize if I took this conversation into another left turn. Proof of a cause is not proof of a God, because a possibility cannot be ruled out is not Evidence that it IS the cause it's just postulating in general. Cause is no more proof that God exists as it's proof of Earth being the universe's largest land-fill.
Is External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of infinity (which we can never quite see but see into) also External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of Life (which we can see into but never quite trace to infinity) and is the contemplation of both External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of its Causation -or God (which we can never quite crystalize in thought) ?
And if you have an answer please could you explain the question to me - even though I'm the one asking?lol.
Not infinity, eternity. These two are not the same.
Burn
Proof of a cause is not proof of a God, because a possibility cannot be ruled out is not Evidence that it IS the cause it's just postulating in general.
That's true.
And it's my favorite postulate.
You are free to provide a better one. ;-)
Burn,
We have the same favorite postulate! Lilly
Sirona,
Since you only provided a snippet of information on those other gods, I went to my library to research them further. I have been studying religion for many years and have lots of books on "gods".
Anyway, all those gods you mention are listed as Polytheist gods. Meaning they are 'plural" and not singular. The zulu's believed that the god Unkulunkulu created the mound of earth that the world came from, but that he had help in creating other things in the world. Similiar with the other gods you mention. So this is not the same as the Monotheist God of Judaism and Chrisitianity. If you hit the blue in the links you provided, you will get more information on those gods. Again, no other single God lays claim to having created all things, by himself, except the God first introduced to the world by Moses.
You will not find anyone who studies religion that will disagree with this fact. The monotheism belief is what set Judaism apart from all the other religions of the time. And this belief in one single God, creator of all things, is what is still held as true by Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Peace, Lilly
That's true.
And it's my favorite postulate.
You are free to provide a better one. ;-)
Nearly every post I have responded with has a different postulate, take your pick. My latest is that the Earth is a giant land-fill of the universe, it's equally plausable. Postulating isn't evidence of anything. I continually find it funny that this thread is now 6 pages in length which the majority of which is Theists and Atheists arguing a point that was noted as not being evidence in the initial post. But I'll state again
COULD BE is not external, observable, verifiable, evidence of.
This isn't a philisophical debate, it's external, observable, verifiable proof of. If the answer could be a thousand things and the best proof that can be mustered is "It COULD BE" I don't know how else to say this. I've tried a myriad of similies, metaphors and illustrations. If you use the words "COULD BE" in your post, that's not a conclusion. "God is without a shadow of a doubt, undeniably, unequivicolly, undebatably the creator of the universe because..."
On the religious side of the debate I just wanted to throw my 2 cents here:
Anyway, if these 3 major religions would stop trying to prove they have the only correct interpretation of scripture, we could focus on the fact that we essentially worship the same God and maybe be peaceful with one another.
I don't know if that's really the case because Islam/Judaeism/Christianity may trace their ancestry back to Abraham but their Gods have radically different personalities. Christians accept the vengeful, blood-thirsty God of the Old Testiment soldering his Israelites from town to town in the middle east killing, raping, and brutally sacraficing animals along their way to the holy land, then the New Testiment has a change of heart and becomes a loving, merciful, forgiving God. Then Judaeism only worships the first half of that, Islam worships the first half and continues this same personality in the newer half of their Qu'ran. If Islam is right then Judaeism is wrong because their God asks for "exclusive devotion" and in essence they've been worshipping this YHWY cat when in actuality his name was Allah. If Judaeism is right we're all in trouble because we should be killing animals for every time we sin. If Christianity is right, God has a split personality. It's basically a pissing contest of who Abraham worshipped, assuming that he had the right guy. Even though if someone was talking to me telling me he's God then tells me to kill my only son, I might seek out some psychotic episode inhibiters instead of doing what he told me. But you know to each their own. You say showing faith to God, I say psychopath believing a voice is telling him to kill his son. To-MAY-to To-Mah-to.
