External, Observable, Verifiable Evidence Of God...

by Tuesday 122 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sirona
    Sirona
    That being said though I will have to say this. Just so no one thinks I was conceding that one of your named "gods" could have been the God who created the universe; most of the "gods' you named would easily be disqualified as such. Why? Because they first have to lay a claim as being the creator of the universe to even be considered as such and they have not.

    ROFLMAO!

    You can't be serious!

    Creation stories exist all over the world and nearly every single one has a god creating things. These myths are recorded.

    Examples of other creator gods:

    Voodoo Damballah (Sky-serpent loa and wise and loving Father archetype) created all the waters of the earth.

    Zulu The Ancient One, known as Unkulunkulu, is the Zulu creator. Korea There were heavenly ones in the sky domain. JoMulJu created everything in the universe, Shinto The god Izanagi and goddess Izanami churned the ocean with a spear to make a small island of curdled salt. Two deities went down to the island, mixed there, and bore main islands, deities, and forefathers of Japan. Hindu In Hindu philosophy, the existence of the universe is governed by the Trimurti of Brahma (the Creator), Vishnu (the Sustainer) and Shiva (the Destroyer).

    As for your Osiris comment - lets see if Ancient Egypt did attribute creation to a god or gods.

    Egyptian

    There were at least three separate cosmogenies in Egyptian mythology, corresponding to at least three separate groups of worshippers.

    The Muslims have Allah creating everything.

    The Qur'an states that God created the world and the heavens, made all the creatures that walk, swim, crawl, and fly on the face of the earth from water. [10] He made the angels, and the sun, moon and the stars to dwell in the universe. He poured down the rain in torrents, and broke up the soil to bring forth the corn, the grapes and other vegetation; the olive and the palm, the fruit trees and the grass.

    God molded clay, earth, sand and water into a model of a man. He breathed life and power into it, and it immediately sprang to life. And this first man was called Adam. God took Adam to live in Paradise. In Paradise, God created Eve (or Hawa), the first woman, from out of Adam's side. God taught Adam the names of all the creatures, and then commanded all the angels to bow down before Adam. But Iblis, one amongst the Jinns (a special being in the Qur'an - who is also considered to be Satan), refused to do this, and thus began to disobey God's will.

    God placed the couple in a beautiful garden in Paradise, telling them that they could eat whatever they wanted except the fruit of on forbidden tree. But the Evil One tempted them to disobey God, and eat the fruit. When God knew that Adam and Eve had disobeyed him, he cast them out of Paradise and sent them to earth.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myth Your "Jehovah" or "yahweh" doesn't hold all the cards, Lil. Sirona

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    If Burn's objections to my premises take the form of "the exception to the norm is the case in question" then he is engaging in special pleading and question begging.

    It isn't part of the set by definition, so what other form can I take?

    For example, you define mind as something purely and necessarily temporal. I do not.

    There's a cosmic jest on, and something is laughing at you.

    Burn

  • inrainbows
    inrainbows

    Why are we debating the cosmological argument for god's existence (i.e. first cause), when it is utter bunk?

    One can only argue it if one presupposes god doesn't need a first cause, which is illogical. Now, fine, if you want to base your support for god's existence on illogicity, good for you, I am genuinely happy you find comfort in that belief, but don't expect to have your arguments taken as being that reliable or of value for anyone other than someone holding the same unprovable presuppostions.

    And just to be clear, saying 'god doesn't need a first cause as he exists out of time' and varients on that theme is a presupposition and not a way of making the cosmological argument in anyway valid.

    God however finds a comeback as follows: For matter to exist at all (in a manner that can interact and produce not only Big Bang chemistry and physics but ultimately planets and physical life) we are left with the unsettling conclusion that there must be an observer to collapse the universe else it would simply exist as unorganised potential - in effect life cannot proceeed from disordered potential, life can only proceed from conscious observation. Consciousness must preceed matter not vice versa. God must observe but in order for the resultant creation to have free will any God must then cease observing:

    Eh? Come on Qc!! That is like the old and extremely dull thought experiment about trees falling in forests with no one there to hear them. Of course they make a sound, as sound is vibrational mechanical energy that propagates through matter as a wave. You don't need a sense of hearing to be present have sound; any deaf person arguing otherwise would be considered a little off base.

    You do not need an observer present to have a Universe, and no amount of dressing it up in cod-physics will change that.

    Rather than recycling centuries old bad arguments I find thinking outside of the box man's arrogance has crammed god into rather interesting.

    If 'god' is not the first cause, does this mean the idea of 'god' is less important?

  • R.Crusoe
    R.Crusoe

    Inrainbows I see you are in the moment of infinity!

    One can only argue infinity has a first cause if it never existed which is utter bunk!

    I agree!

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    That is like the old and extremely dull thought experiment about trees falling in forests with no one there to hear them.

    That may not be too far from the truth.

    It would seem that at its most fundamental state matter exists in a superposition of all possible states until observed.

    You do not need an observer present to have a Universe, and no amount of dressing it up in cod-physics will change that.

    Burn rubs his chin.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Sirona,

    Just a correction because it is a common misconception that Muslims worship a God named "Allah". Allah simply means "God". It is not a personal name of a diety. I know this because I have many muslim friends and have also read the Koran. Their God is the Abrahamic God, the same ones the Jews and Christians Worship. So these 3 major religions claim to worship the same God, the only one who created the universe, (heavens and earth). Where we differ is in our belief of whom Jesus Christ was and our interpretation of scripture. But we do not disagree that there is only one God who created everything.

    As a matter of fact most Muslims (except for the radical sects) call Christians and Jews the "people of the book" meaning to them we are people who hold the holy books (scriptures pertaining to God) in high esteem. These "scriptures" include the Torah, Koran and New Testament. So they do recognize (not all but most) that we read holy books pertaining to "Allah" or "God". Again, Allah is just a title meaning God or LORD.

    Thanks for the other lists of Gods but while it is claimed that each one created some part of the earth, it is not claimed that any of them created everything in the universe. This is what made the God of Judaism different from all the other Gods. And from Judaism we got the Muslim and Christian faiths. Most Bible Scholars agree that this was the biggest difference between the ancient pagan beliefs and the God of Moses, that only ONE God created everything.

    Peace, Lilly

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    To clear up misconceptions about Muslims;

    Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: Allah


    Standard Arabic word for God, used by Arab Christians as well as by Muslims. According to the Qur'an, Allah is the creator and judge of humankind, omnipotent, compassionate, and merciful. The Muslim profession of faith affirms that there is no deity but God and emphasizes that he is inherently one: "nothing is like unto him." Everything that happens occurs by his commandment; submission to God is the basis of Islam. The Qur'an and the Hadith contain the 99 "most beautiful names" of God, including the One and Only, the Living One, the Real Truth, the Hearer, the Seer, the Benefactor, and the Constant Forgiver.

    For more information on Allah, visit Britannica.com

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Just a correction because it is a common misconception that Muslims worship a God named "Allah". Allah simply means "God".

    In English you say "flower".

    In Spanish you say "flor".

    The preceding arguments you respond to, if applied to the above, would make you think we are talking about different things.

    Burn

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    One more thing;

    Everything that has a beginning needs a "first cause". God does not have a beginning and thus needs no cause. (Alpha and Omega, he IS the beginning and the end) What this exactly means, we really do not know because no one can fully understand God.

    But the universe definately had a beginning and that is as per science of our day. They also admit they do not know what the "cause" of the universe was. But it certainly had to be "something" or "someone" not subject to our rules of space and time. Peace, Lilly

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I have nothing to add at the moment, I just wanted to interject that I do enjoy a lively and civilized debate. This thread has turned out well, and it is fun to watch the back-and-forth.

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