Take out your bibles and tell me......with the proper verses (page 3)

choosing life

When I left the witnesses, I thought a lot about the ransom sacrifice. Jesus himself said that the greatest love that can be shown is to give your life for another. That meant to me that if God came down to earth and sacrificed his life for us, he would be showing that ultimate love.

It means a lot more to me that God would become like us and suffer the trials and death of a human to release us from death than if he would require that from someone else. It is the ultimate sacrifice and expression of humility. It touches a responsive chord in me.

Pahpa

BurnTheShips

Isaiah established that the Messiah would be a "Mighty God." Earty Christians would not hesitate to give this honor to Christ. The word "god" is a relative one as you know. Satan and humans were called "gods" in scripture. But it did not imply that they were Almighty God. Isaiah also calls the Messiah "Everlasting Father." Yet, trinitarians insist that the Father is a separate "person" than the Son.

JH

This is an important point. Trinitarians may argue as Real One does that Jesus acknowledges his father's superiority while he was in human form. However, Paul is talking about Christ when he has all power and glory in his kingdom. But in the "end" he subjects himself "to God" and hands over everything to God. This would be impossible if he was God in the trinitarian sense.

BurnTheShips

If Jesus and Jehovah are somewhat equal and both deserve adoration, or if Jesus is Jehovah, then why would it be said about Jesus I Cor 15:28, " 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

How can "all things" be subjected to anyone but God himself? Paul never said or implied that Jesus is not God and God is subordinate to no one. The reasonable conclusion is that God has chosen to manifest Himself in the Person of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the person of Jesus Christ, as both fully God and fully man, He has chosen to subordinate Himself (the Son) to Himself (the Father), as the necessary means to effect our salvation. Perhaps this text refers to a particular office or role the person of the Son now holds after his resurrection, a role that the Father has fulfilled in the past. The different persons of the Trinity have different roles. For example, it was the role of the Son to come to earth and die. It is the role of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth after Jesus' resurrection. Burn, who like Paul "waits for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ" Titus 2:13 Burn

Leolaia

If "god" is an acceptable term of address for Jesus, for he is called "god" in the Bible, why don't we hear JWs refer "God Jesus Christ"? If a JW ended a public prayer by saying, "...and through our god Jesus Christ we pray, Amen", how many JWs would think of that as perfectly fine and how many would start wondering if the brother is an apostate?

The Society in other words reluctantly accepts "god"/"God" as a term of address for Jesus on the basis of biblical texts, but they are rather reluctant to make devotional use of it themselves.

JH

I still recall thses verses and to me it's very clear, that the only GOD is the father.

For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

Jesus came as mediator between man and God. His title God, means that he is divine, just like Satan.

Borgia

Phil 2 I would say.

Maybe the comparison between Pharaoh and Joseph might work here. The god had a representative, Joseph. Only in connection to the Throne Pharao considered himself greater.

WT wizard, I would agree with you when it comes to the slapping. Please, make sure he does more than one...

Cheers

Borgia

lovelylil

jh,

Good Q's again. I have back for a while, let me see if I can clear things up. In John 10:30, Jesus says "the father and I are one". I may have confused you by saying "one and the same". The literal word for "one" that Jesus used is the Greek word "neuter", meaning "one thing", not one person.

The two are one in essence and nature (devinity) but are not identical persons. In position Jehovah as the father is superior to his Son. But only in position, not in nature. That is why Christ could say in John 14:28, "the father is greater than I" and yet BE GOD in his nature. They are two seperate persons that make up the one God. We are "one thing" Jesus said. He also said, "if you have seen me, you have seen the father".

Here is an example to help you understand. A human father and his son are both equal in nature as they are both humans, we can apply the term "neuter" and say they are the same thing; Yet, in position, the father would be considered greater than his son. The text in John 14 is not speaking of Christ's divinity with the father, it is merely stating his position in relation to the father.

That is why the Jews wanted to stone jesus for saying he was "God's son", they knew he was making himself equal to God.

This is an interesting verse that actually proves the point I am making;

1 Corinthians 15:28
When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all

At first glance, it seems like jesus is saying he is inferior to God and thus cannot be God. But that is not true. "the son himself will be made subject to him" in the sense that administratively, after he subjects all things to his power, he will turn it all over to God the father, the administrative head. This in no way suggests the son is inferior to the father in nature. They are still equal in diety and dignity, only the son is subordinate to the father in position. Again, this verse is speaking about "position" only, not Godship.

I am off to work for the overnight shift. I hope I did not confuse you more. The Divinity of Christ was a difficult teaching for me to understand when I first came out of the Tower. I took about a year of the Holy Spirit working with me. I am still working on this teaching. I am not a trinitarian in the sense that most are. I am not sure I would call the Holy Spirit a "person". But I do fully accept the Divinity of Jesus Christ. And since Christ is the head of the Christian church, I believe it appropriate for us to pray to him. Remember we are in the new convenant and thus Christ is our mediator, so why would we not be able to speak directly to him?

When you see how many scriptures in the OT applied to Jehovah are then applied to Christ in the NT, you start to understand that Jesus is much more than the WT makes him out to be. I vehemently DENY the WT teaching that Jesus was and is Michael the Archangel OR that he was a created being. But maybe we can leave that for another day.

I don't want to take over your thread. If you have any other Q's about this topic and need scriptural help. You can pm me anytime! I will get back to you as soon as I can. Keep seeking and you will find the answers to your Q's. Peace be with you, Lilly

Hmmmm..........Somehow, they must be the same ?

Outaservice

Take out your bibles and tell me......with the proper verses

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