Take out your bibles and tell me......with the proper verses

by JH 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JH

    Should one adore and pray to Jehovah or to Jesus?

  • jgnat

    Worship Jesus:

    Matthew 4:130, 2:2, 2:11, 14:33, 28:9, John 9:35-38, Hebrews 1:6


    Worship God:

    1 Chronicles 16:29, Psalm 95:6, John 4:23-24, Romans 12:1


  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    STOP HERE!.......YOU MUST BE CAREFUL USING THE WORD WORSHIP. "Proskyneo" in the bible sometimes translated "worship" means literally "to bow down, prostrate, show reverence." This was done for Jehovah, Jesus, Kings and priests who REPRESENTED Jehovah and therefore you could bow down to them and it would not be creature worship.

    The arguement "worship God, worship Jesus {Proskyneo bow down} makes no sense whatsoever.............P.S- I still hate they Witnesses but Jesus was not accepting worship as "God" and Iam very Anti-Trinity.

  • WTWizard

    To me, I see nothing wrong with praying to Satan. If for no other reason than to give the Witchtower Society a nice big slap in the face.

    I do not, however, recommend worshiping the Filthful and Disgraceful Slavebugger. If you do, you will be wasting your whole life.

  • lovelylil


    The bible says to worship the ONE God alone, who is our creator. In the OT he is called by Jehovah or Yaweh. It is clear, he does not accept anyone worshiping any other God but him.

    See Deutoronomy 5:9, 8:19, 11:16

    In the NT, Jesus also said to Satan that the LORD of the OT is the one we must worship. See Matthew 4:10

    But Jesus accepted worship directed at himself from others. See some of the following times he was worshiped in the NT; Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:17, John 9:38. Also in Hebrews 1:6 it says even Angels shall worship Jesus.

    * the WT has changed the NWT bible to use the word "obeisance" instead of "worship". They flagrantly changed it to back up their own beliefs but in the original greek the word is "worship". See the WT book kingdom interlinear Greek Translation.

    WHY would Jesus accept worship for himself as appropriate? Because he is the incarnation of the LORD of the OT that is why. In other words, he is GOD in the flesh, thus he is the true God of the OT. Here are the texts in their entirety that prove this important point,

    Isaiah 9:6 - For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father,
    Prince of Peace

    John 1:1

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    * If Jesus is "a god" like the WT says, then he must be a false God as all other Gods except the one of the OT are false Gods. And if anyone worshiped Christ, as we see they did, they would have to be stoned for blasphemy.

    Philipians 2:5-7

    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness

    * This verse in philipians clearly shows Christ was the very NATURE of God, thus it proves his divinity prior to taking on a servant(human) form.

    Matthew 1:23

    The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" —which means, "God with us."

    John 8:58

    58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!", compare to this verse; Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, "I am who I am .This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'

    John 10:30

    "I and the Father are one." - one hear meaning one and the same.

    In conclusion we are to worship ONE God only. The God of the OT who was incarnate (made in the flesh) as the Lord Jesus Christ. So worshiping Christ is the same as worshiping the God of the OT for they are the same GOD. The divine Son is equal in nature as the father and the ancient Jews understood this and that is why they wanted to stone Jesus for saying he was God's son. They knew this made him equal. The God of the OT, Jehovah tells us to honor his son JUST LIKE we honor him;

    John 5:22-24

    Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

    There are many other texts that show that Jehovah of the OT shares his diety with his Son but I think these are suffient for now. I did not understand that Jesus IS God in the flesh until I left the WT. They changed all the verses that prove this fact in their bible. I would suggest buying another Bible translation and reading the NT in it to see clearly that the Disciples righfully worshiped Christ. Peace, Lilly

  • lovelylil


    So in other words, you can pray to Jehovah of the OT, or Christ of the NT as they are the same GOD. Lilly

  • JH


    So in other words, you can pray to Jehovah of the OT, or Christ of the NT as they are the same GOD. Lilly

    Do you think that those who pray to either are saved, or do you draw the line of salvation on another topic?

  • JH

    Is it more difficult for a JW to make people understand that ONLY Jehovah should be adored, or is it more difficult for other Christian religions to make JW's understand that Jesus can also be prayed to?

    I think it's a harder task for the JW's because many verses point to Jesus as savior and God and Father.

  • lovelylil


    Good Q's. Since Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same, Christ being the incarnation of the God of the OT, you can call on either to be saved. See Joel 2:32 speaking of the LORD of the OT, and then this same text is applied to Christ at Romans 10:12-14. For Christians, Christ is the head of our church thus it is appropriate to call on him for our salavation.

    But a good Q is this: what exactly does it mean to call on the name of Jesus to be saved? I believe scripturally it means understanding who he is, accepting his divinity and saving power. And understanding that Jehovah has currently placed ALL things under his son's judgement. But that is another thread entirely. I don't want to highjack this further.

    As far as your 2nd Q; I believe it is WAY more difficult to convince a JW that Christ is indeed God, then to convince a Christian that God's name is Jehovah. For one thing, many Christians in Christendom already accept the LORD of the OT as being named either Jehovah or Yaweh, so they do in fact know God has a personal name. Which is contrary to what the WT believes and says about other Christians.

    Secondly, most JW's are used to using on the NWT and are suspect to any other bible because they have been convinced by the WT that other bibles are wrong and even full of demon teachings. So it is hard for the JW to see Christ is indeed God because all those texts are been changed in the NWT.

    Although it is difficult to reason with a jw about Christ being God, it is not impossible. With God all things are possible. A real Christian planted a seed in my mind about Christ being equal in nature to Jehovah a full year before I was even thinking about leaving the WT. With help of the Holy spirit, that seed was called back to mind and gave me a starting point in finding out who Christ really was.

    Anyway jh, I would like to "talk" more about this but have to go out. I will be back online tomarrow morning. Peace and again good Q's. Lilly

  • veradico

    Greg Stafford is a good example of someone who still does not believe in the Trinity doctrine developed by the early Church as a compromise between and harmonization of the dominant Christologies but who accepts that Jesus can be worshiped. Jesus is Jehovah, in Stafford's view, both in the legal sense of being the representative of Jehovah and in the ontological sense of Jesus' having been made the exact image of Jehovah's very being. Thus, Jesus can be directly appealed to and adored, and Jesus can be addressed as Jehovah; however, Stafford can continue rejecting the Trinity doctrine in its full, robust form. The Trinity doctrine and Stafford's doctrine are both attempts to harmonize the various perspectives among early Christians. I think the biblical evidence is clear that Jesus did not believe he was God in the Trinitarian sense, nor did most of the early Jewish-Christians. He was, however, an apocalyptic mystic/prophet who, in the tradition of John the Baptist, had a distinctly private and personal relationship with the Jewish God; he and God were "One". Nonetheless, the evidence is also clear that soon after Jesus' death Christians, especially pagan-Christians, began worshiping Jesus as God. The details, of course, differed from group to group. The NT reflects some of the diverse doctrines and practices of the early Christians, if you start looking at some of the other texts produced by those communities, the situation becomes even more complex.

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