by LtCmd.Lore 21 Replies latest watchtower bible
For complicated reasons that I'm not going to go into right now, the JWs view it as very important that Judas left BEFORE the bread and wine was passed around.
But did he?
Have you found a way to get into the "complicated reasons" yet? I am quite curious as to what you mean. If this is the breaking grounds to explain that there were 12 disiples and not 11 as WT teaches, I think that would be an amazing discovery.
Have you found a way to get into the "complicated reasons" yet? I am quite curious as to what you mean. If this is the breaking grounds to explain that there were 12 disiples and not 11 as WT teaches, I think that would be an amazing discovery.
Sorry, I thought I recalled the reason why it was "very important" when I posted it. But now that I really think about it, I'm not sure it's as big of a deal as I thought. Either way it's something interesting to mention, even if it's not as earth shattering as I thought it was.
But I do know that Jehovahs Witnesses are pretty much alone in this belief, most other religions just accept that Judas was there and partook. So I'm sure there must be SOME reason that they make an issue out of this. When I figure out how to use this I'll let you know.
They told me that the Passover meal is split into two parts, Judas was present for the first part but had left by the second part which is classed as being the 'important bit' for Christians.
Correct. The Watchtower Society teaches that the Passover meal takes place and then the "new" meal is instituted that becomes the memorial of his death.
From the Watchtower website, an article on Jesus' last days:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980315/article_01.htm
However, Jesus knows that one of these men—Judas Iscariot—has already arranged to betray him to the religious leaders. Understandably, he becomes very distressed. "One of you will betray me," he reveals. The apostles are highly grieved at this. ( Matthew 26:21, 22 ) After celebrating the Passover, Jesus tells Judas: "What you are doing get done more quickly."— John 13:27 .
Once Judas has left, Jesus introduces a meal to commemorate his impending death. He takes a loaf of the unleavened bread, expresses thanks in prayer, breaks it, and instructs the 11 to partake. "This means my body," he says, "which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." He then takes a cup of red wine. After saying a blessing, he passes the cup to them, telling them to drink out of it. Jesus adds: "This means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins."
Not that they're right...it's what they teach though.
Ok, so the Org's take is that AFTER the Passover, Jesus instituted the new meal...thanks for clarifying that...
Not to hijack the thread, but I came across some interesting information on a Discovery Channel video on the Last Supper...apparently the Passover was a FAMILY celebration, with women attending as well. So from that aspect, there should be every possibility that women could also have been in attendance at the Passover celebration, including the institution of the new covenant. The Bible does not specifically mention who exactly was there. And Jesus said "Take, eat ALL OF YOU..."
Just thought it was an interesting aspect. Of course, it takes open-minded theologians and scholars to do some serious meditating and historical research to come up with these angles. Who knows what was edited out of the reports of that last supper that finally made it into the heavily edited New Testament that we are left with today. Perhaps even the fact that Judas partook was edited out. Who knows?
Sorry to ask more questions on this thread....
What is the spin about Jesus drinking 'no more' of this product of the vine, until he drinks it new with them in the Kingdom? How can he drink again of LITERAL wine, unless he returns to his Kingdom literally? Some of these sayings are truly mystifying but of course, it is all glossed over with convoluted typical Watchtower 'pretzel' reasoning...wish I could remember the thread I first read that in - describes it perfectly...it's all conjecture!
Thanks LORE, I had never really thought about that.
Burn
Meeting Junkie (No More),
One likely reference of that saying is the so-called "eschatological banquet" which was a common representation of future bliss (in both heavenly and earthly traits, cf. Isaiah 25 etc.) in the "age to come". This is referred to in the NT, e.g.
Matthew 8:11f: "I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven" (cf. also the parable of the banquet in chapter 22).
Luke 22:30: "so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Revelation 3:20: "Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me." (Cf. 19:9.)
In a sense, the "last meal" itself is largely conceived after the image of that banquet, as its prolepsis or prefiguration.
Mary Magdalene was there. The bible portrays her to be a reformed harlot, other sources say she was just a strong-willed woman.
The religioius powers that be have taken any truth we may hope to have away from everyday people.
Religion hates women. So therefore, knowing Christ's mind about woman, how can we follow any of them?
The bible portrays her to be a reformed harlot
Not really. That's the traditional conflation of several female Gospel characters that led to that middle-ages picture of Mary Magdalene.
knowing Christ's mind about woman
Ahem... how do we know it, exactly?
Just look at how he treated them. The first person he admitted to being the Messiah to was a woman.
He loved his Mama. Just like most men do.
I can't remember Jesus ever telling a woman to sit down and shut up. He almost seems like someone trying to placate a hateful daddy.
