Are Prayers For Real?

by WTWizard 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    You hear about prayers all the time in most religions, including Jehovah's Witlesses. And they point to scriptures about how God answered specific prayers as evidence that He is ready to answer your prayers. There will be a study article in the February 2008 Kool-Aid for those who have to attend the boasting session (and a Comments You Will Not Hear for those who don't).

    Now, I am going to analyze what this has to do with your prayers. First, they discuss prayers in the Bible, almost always in the Old Testament. They will discuss King David's prayers (about victory in his initiatory force usage to vanquish nations that were minding their own business or defending themselves from further initiatory force). Hezekiah also prayed, both for his health and for the nations that were attacking (to defend from further initiatory force from Israel) to be defeated. That was the one where Jehovah sent the angel to kill 185,000 "enemy" men. There are numerous other stock prayers logged in the Bible.

    Now, the common denominator is that those prayers that were answered without much degradation and/or delay all pertained to Jehovah's own name. His dawdling on them or downgrading the answer would have led to His ultimate defeat. Those prayers all pertained to keeping the lineage alive or keeping Israel intact and going, ultimately to produce Jesus. True, Jesus could have been born either way, but it would have been a loss of praise (undeserved praise) to Jehovah had He allowed Jesus to have been born a Philistine or Canaanite.

    Which means that none of the prayers were for personal needs. In fact, there is no mention where a personal need, save Hezekiah's extension of his life (and there is no guarantee that he wouldn't have gotten better either way), was fulfilled via answered prayer. (And that was put there solely as a stock example for people to refer to when their own needs are not being addressed, so they will continue having false hope and keep wasting their time trusting in that Almighty Louse to address their own needs).

    OK, so I have heard of people that have seemingly had prayers answered. But were they? What happens if you pray for something, and then work toward its fulfillment as you are supposed to? Invariably, if anything good does come from it, it is the work alone or the work plus the possibility of insight from just pausing that is wholly responsible. You did the work yourself, and God unjustly gets all the credit. To me, that is a major scam. Doing all the work yourself should entitle you to all the credit. Imagine how pxxxed 50 Cent would have been had God taken all the credit for his masterpieces!

    And, when you do get an answer, it is invariably the right brain that is the source. When you pray, chances are you are taking apart the problem, at least subconsciously. And, in doing so, there is a chance you are going to find the solution. Just taking a break from it can often yield the same results.

    And, what of those prayers that someone get better, say, after an illness? That they find a job? They find a home? More often than not, those things naturally happen. When we get sick, we are usually going to get better whether or not anyone prays for us. And, since Jehovah is supposedly against use of drugs, what happens when I find and land a job solely because my rivals and/or the person I'm replacing were using drugs? (Every job I have ever had was because someone tested positive for drugs, did a no-show while on drugs, slept on the job because of drugs, or stole for drug money). Is that something Jehovah can take credit for? I don't think so--Satan is the one that gets all the credit.

    No matter how you look at it, having your prayers answered is a myth. The Bible has strategic stock incidents that are supposed to replace personal needs, so Jehovah no longer has to actually answer any new prayers in order to look good. I think most of the benefit can be obtained just by taking a pause from the problem at hand, analyzing how something works, and then doing the work yourself. You are still going to have to work, and you are still not certain of attaining the desired result. However, you, not some Almighty Parasite, will get all the credit for a positive outcome. And, there will be no way God can control you by threatening to make it not work. And, don't bother wasting your time thanking Jehovah for anything, either--unless you truly want it taken away never to be seen again.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    WTWizard,

    More often than not, those things naturally happen. When we get sick, we are usually going to get better whether or not anyone prays for us.

    Then why do studies generally show that the religious who pray during illness recover faster than others that don't? There is at least some effect.

    Burn

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard
    Then why do studies generally show that the religious who pray during illness recover faster than others that don't?

    This has to do with stress. When people pray, they are actually taking a break from the stresses. During this supposedly quiet time, they are actually lowering their blood pressure for a time, and helping dispose of stress hormones. The same thing can be accomplished with just about any form of meditation, as well as any kind of peaceful thoughts (of which hospitals are prime examples of the antithesis).

    Anything that gives the stress hormones a break can help heal from sickness. One might get that effect from prayer. (Also, it could well be that, during prayer, the right brain is activated to heal--often a post-hypnotic suggestion from religion). And, since many religions teach that prayer heals, the placebo effect can play a role (which could be reason enough even if there is no God).

    If it works for you, then by all means try it. And try other stress busters as well, in conjunction with what works. But, above all, you need proper nutrition and sleep in order to heal and stay healthy.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    And, since many religions teach that prayer heals, the placebo effect can play a role (which could be reason enough even if there is no God).

    So in a nutshell, is what you are saying : If we have faith, we can "move mountains"?

    Some studies have shown effects, some studies have not. I guess God intervenes when he wants to.

    http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/can-prayer-heal

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/23/AR2006032302177.html

    Burn

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    When I had cancer, I prayed, and others prayed for me. I was 20. The doctors and people who treated me said I was the fastest strongest recovery they had ever seen, and that my mental state was surprisingly peaceful and positive despite my condition and weakness. I had faith that I would get better. Other than an initial fear, all my fear dissipated. My mother actually had a visit from an angel who spoke to her. I prayed to help my family leave the WT cult, and God helped me in this too. I believe prayer has power.

    Before going to the Father, Jesus prayed for his followers in John 17:6-26: "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name;the name you gave me;so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

    Stephen prayed for his murderers at the moment of his death. Acts 7:60: Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Paul Prayed for the Ephesians, Ephesians 3:14-20: For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 1may have power, together with all the believers, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

    Paul prayed for the Philippians, Philippians 1:9-11: And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ, 11filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.

    Paul Prayed for the Colossians, Colossians 1:9-17:For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance.... in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    What is prayer anyway?

    For me it's more than rattling off a wish list, it's a deep desire to see some effect - you could say I'm partly praying to myself, but hey, if God's Spirit indwells me, that's not a major problem!

    For ill people, often just knowing that others are thinking about them is a boost for them to get well - a bit like the tail runner in a race being cheered on by the crowds, they may be running on empty but they are carried on by the encouragement.

    A few years ago, my brother was seriously ill and had to undergo two massive operations followed by 5 weeks in ITU and another 2 months in a regular hospital ward, the odds were really stacked against him - only 20% chance of survival - plus the usual dangers associated with a prolonged period of ventilation - plus he contracted MRSA! Now, he's not a religious man so during all that time, I never once mentioned that either I or the prayer team in my church were praying for him, we just prayed.

    When he finally came home, he asked me "Were the folks at your church praying for me?" I have still no idea how he knew that.

    Is prayer for real then? I reckon at least some of it must be...

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    I think that prayer can be very helpful in some cases and very detrimental in other cases.

    If we are pray to some supposed God up in heaven somewhere that has a laptop where he writes down every infraction and every good deed to decide what to do for us or against us(which BTW is total obsurdity, I would think a creator of everything would have much more important things to do that be caught up with such triviality of every individual's life). I see this as a weak crutch, that may offer some comfort with a host of problems caused by wishful thinking, that you have an inside tract to the big man in the sky and that he will fix your problems, all you have to do is pray and wait, instead of taking responsiblity and doing something about them yourself.

  • Caedes
    Caedes
    When I had cancer, I prayed, and others prayed for me. I was 20. The doctors and people who treated me said I was the fastest strongest recovery they had ever seen, and that my mental state was surprisingly peaceful and positive despite my condition and weakness

    I want you to think about all the other things that were going on in the world at that time, all the starving children, people suffering because of war or famine or flood or disease. All of the people that died at that time, why did your god choose you? why did he answer your prayer rather than the prayer of some starving child? I don't know your circumstances, I'm sure it was bad for you and your family, but presumably you recognise that there are people in much more dire need of divine intervention than you.

    So what is so special about you, that your god chose to ignore those starving kids in Africa and grant your prayer for a speedy recovery. You hadn't struck me as that much of an egotist, BTS. Surely you recognise that your god had much greater responsibilities on the day he answered your prayers.

    On a related note, I always find it annoying when people offer to pray if I tell them about a problem I am having, because any problem I am having is nothing compared to the problems some people face. I would much rather that any theist pray for something worthwhile if they must pray on my behalf.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Elmo,

    When he finally came home, he asked me "Were the folks at your church praying for me?" I have still no idea how he knew that.

    You posed it as a question your brother asked and then say "I have still no idea how he knew that." so which is it? did he ask a question or did he make a statement that he had advanced knowledge of the church praying for him?

    Actually it is a no brainer if you ask me,, your his brother(clue#1) he has a 20% chance of survival(clue#2), and you religiously go to church(clue#3) seems like a perfectly plausible question he might ask of you with absolutely no hint of divine knowledge given him as to the goings on in your church prayer request which is relatively common in many churches.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    I want you to think about all the other things that were going on in the world at that time, all the starving children, people suffering because of war or famine or flood or disease. All of the people that died at that time, why did your god choose you? why did he answer your prayer rather than the prayer of some starving child? I don't know your circumstances, I'm sure it was bad for you and your family, but presumably you recognise that there are people in much more dire need of divine intervention than you.

    So what is so special about you, that your god chose to ignore those starving kids in Africa and grant your prayer for a speedy recovery. You hadn't struck me as that much of an egotist, BTS. Surely you recognise that your god had much greater responsibilities on the day he answered your prayers.

    I don't know Caedes. Why me? I think there is a reason for everything, even suffering and death, even if I can't understand it. As to why God helped me and not someone else, I do not know. God knows. I am grateful that He did help me. As for others, I pray for them also. As for death, in the case of others as well as myself, I do not believe in the finality of it. An infant suffers and struggles during birth, but it does not realize the larger world outside the womb, it has only heard muffled sounds and shadows. It can't comprehend what lies out there. It is totally beyond the world of its experience.

    On a related note, I always find it annoying when people offer to pray if I tell them about a problem I am having, because any problem I am having is nothing compared to the problems some people face. I would much rather that any theist pray for something worthwhile if they must pray on my behalf.

    Your self-effacement is a good thing in many ways Caedes. But I suspect your well being is very worthwhile to others. I remember the expression in Schindler's List:

    "Whoever saves a life saves a world entire."

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit