Dr. Ehrman's "Problem" Verse

by hmike 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hmike
    hmike

    Some of you know about Dr. Bart Ehrman. For those who don't, Dr. Ehrman is a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and has written several books including Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why, in which he includes some biographical material. In this book, Ehrman recounts how he became a Christian through a youth ministry while in high school, and he claimed to have had a genuine "born again" experience (although he doesn't give any details of what that experience was for him). With the encouragement of the charismatic youth leader, he began a quest to understand the Bible. He went on to Moody Bible Institute, a conservative, fundamental Bible college, from there to Wheaton College, and from there to Princeton Theological Seminary. Throughout this time, he maintained the belief he had learned at Moody that the Bible was inerrant. In a class at Princeton, he was assigned to write a paper in which he attempted to explain the apparent contradiction between Mark 2:25-26 and 1 Sam. 21:1-6. (It concerns the accounts of David taking the consecrated bread for food from the priest. Mark quotes Jesus as saying it was in the "days of Abiathar"—understood to mean when Abiathar was high priest, while Samuel states it was when Ahimelech, Abiathar's father, was the priest.) When he got the paper back, the instructor had written on it, "Maybe Mark just made a mistake." Ehrman says that once he accepted that possibility, his beliefs about the Bible and God began to unravel. Eventually, he discarded virtually all he had held true and today describes himself as a "happy agnostic."

    In his book Misquoting Jesus, Ehrman explains how scribes, who copied Bible texts by hand in the days before printing, made changes, either accidentally or deliberately (attempting to clarify something or maybe even promote their own perspective). His point is that we do not, and perhaps never will, arrive at the original texts, which are claimed to be inspired by God. (This wouldn't matter to an agnostic or atheist anyway, since there is no such thing as a real inspired text from God.) He claims many changes were made to bring discrepancies into agreement.

    This brings me to a question about this issue. Starting with the text in Mark, if you could go back to the original manuscript of Mark, and you assume this account of David taking the bread from the high priest was fabricated, why did the author make an obvious mistake? Surely he was aware of what was written in Samuel. And even if the original text of Mark was written this way, why didn't a copyist somewhere make the correction? Surely somebody noticed.

    There have been attempts to explain this difference. I can see one possibility myself. But reconciling this or any other particular problem isn't what I'm after. Now a question about changes: why was this, or any other discrepancy for that matter, allowed to stand if scribes were so diligent to make corrections? Why were any discrepancies allowed to stand for us to account for? Why wasn't everything cleaned up? Also, if these discrepancies had been seen by the early churches and the ecclesiastical councils as a problem the way modern readers do, wouldn't they have been even more selective in what they accepted? To me, these are obvious issues produced from his presentation, but Ehrman makes no attempt to answer them, as though he is not even aware there could be problems with his explanation. It leaves me wondering if he considered other possibilities, or if he just simply abandoned all credibility of the Bible as if that were the only option. (Surprisingly, the possibility that a copyist error could account for the difference in Mark was not considered anywhere.)

    Is it possible that early readers of the texts did not see these differences as problems the way we do? Is it possible that later scholars have applied standards to the texts that are not appropriate? Are we requiring more of the texts than they require of themselves? We think we know so much, with our developed critical thinking skills. Should our opinions be valued so much more than those of people who lived in close proximity to the time and culture when the manuscripts were written? It seems to me that all he has done is challenge the credibility of a specific, narrow understanding (which he held at one time) of the Bible texts that perhaps was never expected in the first place.

    I don't have a problem with Ehrman presenting his issues about the Bible (he does not bring out anything new). I think the issues should be examined, but his conclusions are not automatic: that because God did not protect the texts from copyists introducing changes, we do not have the original words, therefore we cannot know what the "inspired" words to us were, which doesn't really matter because if God didn't take care of protecting the texts, he doesn't exist, so the Bible is totally man-made anyway.

    Ehrman doesn't have much to say about how he dealt with this on a personal level. I wish he had. Perhaps he felt it was not relevant, but I think it is. In a Q & A section in the back of the book, he said the real issue for him was not the problems of the texts, but the philosophical issue of how a good God could allow pain, suffering, and evil in the world—interesting. He also said he plans a forthcoming book through Harper in which it looks like he may have something to say about his personal journey. I hope so.

  • tula
    tula

    I am glad to see an opportunity for intellectual discussion here amongst the riff-raff.

    That's all I have to contribute.

    I am simply a scholar hoping to learn something from someone smarter.

    That being said, hopefully Leolai will be along soon.

    Tula

  • Aliboy
    Aliboy

    Hear! Hear!

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    There is an underlying problem in the artificial genealogy of Zadoq which appears in 2 Samuel 8:17, where Abiathar is given as father (instead of son, cf. 1 Samuel 22:20) of Ahimelek...

    But when you say it was not "corrected" I don't agree: both Matthew (12:4) and Luke (8:4) drop the embarrassing reference to Abiathar, and even some manuscripts of Mark 2:26 (D and W) do the same thing, while many others (A, C, etc.) insert the article before "high priest," allowing for a looser interpretation ("in the days of Abiathar the high priest" instead of "when Abiathar was the high priest").

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    I for one enjoy topics of this sort. They go beyond the typical "JW v Other Religions and their merits" and focus on some difficulties all religions have that are based on the bible.

    Misquoting Jesus is one of my favorite books, because their isn't imo an agenda that Ehrman has. One of the real success of this book imo is how it explains what is involved in "textual criticism". We ex JW's know that this phrase was a dirty word because it directly contradicted the GB's claim that every single verse of the bible is correct and right. This also means that every weird and contradictory verse must be dealt with, explained (often re-explained) and in the end, help up and defended. Obviously with JW's we know there is an agenda with no intellectual honesty at all, and no room for disagreement or doubt.

    Having said that, I would like to address a couple of questions raised in this thread by hmike

    Now a question about changes: why was this, or any other discrepancy for that matter, allowed to stand if scribes were so diligent to make corrections? Why were any discrepancies allowed to stand for us to account for? Why wasn't everything cleaned up? Also, if these discrepancies had been seen by the early churches and the ecclesiastical councils as a problem the way modern readers do, wouldn't they have been even more selective in what they accepted?

    I might have to reread the book again, but if memory serves, Ehrman makes the point that these books themselves were floating around for centruies. Often, Christian groups with their own take on Jesus (such as the Gnostics) took the scrolls in circulation and used them to prop up their own unique Christian tradition and teachings. The Gnostics obviously lost. It seemed to me that Ehrmans point was that the early churches and councils weren't selective at all and used the now canonical books not for religious reasons but for political consolidation of power. Discrepencies were allowed to stand because the purity of the text as they had it wasn't their number one priority, or even number two. It was all about their power while quashing dissident view of other Christian and pagan sects.

    Is it possible that early readers of the texts did not see these differences as problems the way we do? Is it possible that later scholars have applied standards to the texts that are not appropriate? Are we requiring more of the texts than they require of themselves?

    Is it possible is always an interesting question, but it isn't always a very pragmatic point of view. First of all, their were serious disagreements for hundreds of years after Jesus and his apostles died among the breakaway sects. That in itself hints at if not outrightly points to them noting problems in translation and especially interpretation. As for the standards of scholars today, they have no agenda. Do you think they should keep silent if they note that Mark got the wrong source text for his gospel? That isn't a "standard". Thats just factual evidence. As far as what we should require of the texts, we should require for the burden these "holy" books put on man that they be accurate and factual, and free of myth, legend and superstition. That seems fair to me.

    I think the issues should be examined, but his conclusions are not automatic: that because God did not protect the texts from copyists introducing changes, we do not have the original words, therefore we cannot know what the "inspired" words to us were, which doesn't really matter because if God didn't take care of protecting the texts, he doesn't exist, so the Bible is totally man-made anyway.

    I disagree with you here friend. The conclusions as the accuracy of these texts are in legitmate question, and rightfully so. I can't help but note the thiestic slant to your framing of this question. Certainly we have complete evidence that god (if he exists) didn't protect these scrolls. So the only thiestic argument left is to suggest that they still represent gods thoughts. But as Ehrman presents through evidence and facts, there is 100% evidence that men with religious and political agendas were 100% responsible for what was in the now canonical bible and 0% evidence that god did much of anything in making sure the "bible" was written and inspired for us today. There is way to much in the way of mental gymnastics to do to come to that conclusion.

    JW's themselves make me laugh as I have left. They ABHOR pagan, weedlike Christians, but can't explain or get past the fact that in their view, Jehovah used these pagan evil men to somehow get the bible right where he wanted it. Surely this is contradictory, but it is convenient only to explain what is needed, and leave the rest under the rug. Most religions do this to one extent or the other.

  • hmike
    hmike

    Thanks for the interest so far.

    Narkissos,

    But when you say it was not "corrected" I don't agree: both Matthew (12:4) and Luke (8:4) drop the embarrassing reference to Abiathar

    I know that, like most scholars, you consider Matthew and Luke were written later than Mark and drew from it. I understand the reasons, but I'm not convinced.

    even some manuscripts of Mark 2:26 (D and W) do the same thing, while many others (A, C, etc.) insert the article before "high priest," allowing for a looser interpretation ("in the days of Abiathar the high priest" instead of "when Abiathar was the high priest").

    That's interesting. The NIV, which I use most often, does translate it as "in the days of..." The 21st ed. of the Nestle Greek text they use preceeds Abaithar with epi (on).

    Jeff,

    Thanks for the comments. You brought up some good points that I'll get to later.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Epi is not in question. The facilitating variant is epi Abiathar tou archiereôs, instead of epi Abiathar archiereôs which clearly means "when Abiathar was high priest." But the NIV has a harmonistic tendency of its own...

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    Hi Tula, who are you calling riff-raff? :)

    interesting discussion - its obvious there could be no such thing as the original text, too many years passing, too many hands writing copies, too many different theories and ideas. However, the thing that struck me the most is that when I read the subject "Dr. Ehrman's Problem Verse" I thought you were talking about poetry!!! I guess I have come a long long long way from the org. I don't think about the bible any more.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    hmike You make some good points, and raise some great issues. One of the problems on a board like this is we think we believe what we believe because we are smarter than the next guy. So we think that simply putting the "Truth" (as they see it) out there, we are going to win a contest (IMO that's the JW approach). I would say that most Christians (at least the ones I know) are aware of "problem" verses. For me, none of the "problem verses" affect anything important concerning the essentials(see apostles creed) of the historic Christian faith. So I have every confidence in God's preserving of the Text.

  • The Last Nephilim
    The Last Nephilim

    *BUUUUURP!*


    ...oh, 'scuse me!

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