Dead Sea Scrolls, Apocrypha, Nag Hammadi, Deciding on the Bible Canon

by OnTheWayOut 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  My Struggle

  so what would you all recommend as a good introductory book to read to learn more about this - not fiction like Da Vinci Code, but more along the lines of what you all have been discussing?

  Canon of the Scripture: It's Origin, Development, and Significance, is a great book for an overall view.

  Lost Scriptures, contains many of the Gnostic text as well as other non-canonized text translated into English.

  Lost Christianities, contains the historical perspective around the scriptures that were not canonized.

  This is a fair introduction that should be readable to everyone.
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  BurnTheShips

  Canon of the Scripture: It's Origin, Development, and Significance, is a great book for an overall view.

  Lost Scriptures , contains many of the Gnostic text as well as other non-canonized text translated into English.

  Lost Christianities , contains the historical perspective around the scriptures that were not canonized.

  This is a fair introduction that should be readable to everyone.

  I also think that the source texts should be read. It can be a chore for some of them and commentaries are helpful, not to mention that some are only fragmentary but still.

  These are some I have and recommend:

  Nag Hammadi Library

  Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered

  Book of the Jubilees

  Book of Enoch

  I also recommend some of the early "orthodox" noncanonical writings. I find very little mention of these on this forum compared to the above:

  The Apostolic Fathers

  and

  Eusebius Church History

  I think we need to look at the canon as an expression of the community that ratified it. As JWs we were always trained that the community was based on the canon. Me, I think they got it backwards.

  Burn
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  BurnTheShips

  I am sure that you know this but St. Jerome is the one that edited out the books of Daniel and many of the books of the OT. He is the one that is responsible for the Catholics bible being different than the Protestant version. Not being a Catholic I do not know which translation they like the best, but as for me the New Jerusalem Bible is a good and fair translation that contains all the books and chapters edited out by Jerome.

  Jerome had no authority to determine on his own what was or was not canonical. He had ha right to his opinion, of course, and a scholarly opinion it was. Before the official canon was ratified in the late 300s AD, individual bishops drew up their own lists of what they considered to be inspired, but these were not definitive lists and they didn't always agree. Eventually the general Church decided. In 386 AD there was the Synod of Rome called by Pope Damasus I and the books that were ratified as canonical in that council are what we have today. In 393 AD and 397 AD in Councils at Hippo and Carthage, the books deemed canonical at the Roman Synod were declared canonical. These were regional councils, and as such were not considered to be universally binding, but in 405 AD Pope Innocent I reiterated the canon determined by these councils and it has never changed since. Jerome initially had misgivings about the deuterocanonical books, he was influenced by Jewish scholarship which had decreed several of the "deuterocanonical" books as not inspired at the putative Council of Jamnia in 97 AD. That I know of there is no reason to believe that Jerome did not accept what became the general canon, as these occured during his own lifetime. This early canon was reaffirmed at later ecumenical councils such as the Councils of Florence and Trent. I think the latter reffirmed the ancient canon largely as a reaction to the removal of several books by Luther and others.

  Burn
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  dawg

  Thank you so much MY struggle, for letting us know exactly what God wants... I was confused there for a minute... I thought the FADS had a corner on that market... but since you already know what he wants, that means I can stop looking.

  This thread reminds me of the OT God is evil thread, once a person starts to believe they can't be talked to any longer. THey believe it, so bugger off!

  SO, since so many think they know what God wants, think they're an authority, I'll tell you all what he really wants... I'm the new "faithful slave", might as well be me since anyone seems capiable of claiming the throne. He wants us to lay down all books, walk outside and look at his creation, stop pining like Parasees about which scripture says what...its always good to be educated in such things, but he wants us all to stop bickering about "who killed who" this "is suposed to be a happy occasion" as Monty Python would put it.

  All this time worrying about whether Jesus had sex with his wife, we don't sit and worry if he relieved himself, an absolutly human behavior that I find much worse to envision than having sexual relations. Yet, Jesus was too pure in many of your minds to have sex, he could take a dump but couldn't make love? Wow, your minds are twisted, all of you that think like this need to walk outside, watch the birds and bees... Sex is natural, men and women have it all the time... God wants us to have sex, he just told me so... the same as he tells anyone who writes any religious book...

  Nicea 325, that's the smoking gun, that's where it all started... thats when the battle over the trinity began and subsequently the battle over cannon... Jesus condemed himself as a false prophet in Matt 24 and other places, he was talking to his apostles and falsely predicted the end of the world would come in their times... SO My struggle, why don't you struggle and explain how God was so off the mark when he predicted the end of world would come in his apostles day? Read all of Matthew 24 and tell me it happend as Jesus predicted.
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  BurnTheShips

  Hey Dawg!

  Why don't you lighten up on the noob dude?

  He wants us to lay down all books, walk outside and look at his creation, stop pining like Parasees about which scripture says what...its always good to be educated in such things, but he wants us all to stop bickering about "who killed who" this "is suposed to be a happy occasion" as Monty Python would put it.

  That's the purpose of the thread. And the OP was great! We are all looking and learning. You are posting on it yourself, why not take some of your own free advice and go for a nice walk in the brisk GA air?

  This thread reminds me of the OT God is evil thread, once a person starts to believe they can't be talked to any longer. THey believe it, so bugger off!

  I believe it. So bugger off!

  Cheers,

  Burn

  I don't really mean bugger off, just sayin'.
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  dawg

  Thanks once again BTS, for answering only half of what's posted. Talking with you is no different than talking to a JW... But I'm out the door at this very moment, to do just as you recomend... Have a nice day.
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  BurnTheShips

  Thanks once again BTS, for answering only half of what's posted. Talking with you is no different than talking to a JW

  Well if you insist I will interact with the rest of your post. I don't have to you know.

  All this time worrying about whether Jesus had sex with his wife, we don't sit and worry if he relieved himself, an absolutly human behavior that I find much worse to envision than having sexual relations. Yet, Jesus was too pure in many of your minds to have sex, he could take a dump but couldn't make love?

  Well I don't think that is the point. It isn't about whether sex is dirty or clean, it is about whether Jesus had a wife. If he in fact did, and the accounts we have omit it, it is important from a religious and historical point of view.

  Nicea 325, that's the smoking gun, that's where it all started... thats when the battle over the trinity began and subsequently the battle over cannon...

  It goes back a lot farther than 325 AD. I recommend When Jesus Became God by Richard E. Rubinstein. I think the book has a distinctly Unitarian slant (the author is Jewish) but it covers the early christological controversies very well.

  Jesus condemed himself as a false prophet in Matt 24 and other places, he was talking to his apostles and falsely predicted the end of the world would come in their times

  I don't think that follows, I just scanned Mat. 24 and I don't see that prediction, here is what I do see (perhaps you can enlighten me when you return):

  Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come......."No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father.

  I see no date setting here at all.

  Cheers,

  Burn
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  Paralipomenon

  Keep in mind that there were alot of forgeries out there. Most of the Gnostic books have been identified as forgeries which devalues their message to nothingness.
  
  This is not limited to Gnostic texts though. There are several books that made it into the bible canon that have since been labeled as forgeries and many other that the jury is still out on. The gnostic texts are interesting and entertaining, but offer no greater insight into the old world past showing what was on the minds of our ancestors, since they were written to explain inconsistencies that they were faced with in accepting Christianity.
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  OnTheWayOut

  so what would you all recommend as a good introductory book to read to learn more about this - not fiction like Da Vinci Code, but more along the lines of what you all have been discussing?

  Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, Henry Lincoln
  also: The Jesus Papers by Michael Baigent (highly speculative though)
  and The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception by by Michael Baigent

  I have yet to read more such as The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered by Robert Eisenman
  I have only read website links and watched documentaries on the Nag Hammadi writings.

  This is such a controversial subject that I feel that most people should research and
  decide for themselves what they WANT to read. All the books and documentaries have
  an agenda and you have to weed through the material for speculations and guesses and
  fill-in-the-blanks.

  I cannot dismiss books that just don't harmonize with the current bible canon. But I don't
  see the need to read every last one of them either.
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  OnTheWayOut

  This is not limited to Gnostic texts though. There are several books that made it into the bible canon that have since been labeled as forgeries and many other that the jury is still out on.

  The skeptics (pretty much everyone who is not looking through eyes of faith) think that, most likely, none of the Gospels
  was written by those who are given the credit in the canon. They doubt that the authors' names in the OT
  are the real authors, either.

  This is a learning process. I don't automatically suggest that others ditch their Bible because it is not "inspired."
  Yet, there are facinating things to learn here. Form your own opinions about how God did or did not protect
  "His" word and bring the Bible to it's modern form. Any argument that God's hand is in it still causes one to
  wonder how there are different versions of the Bible with different canons.