another thread up in smoke.
why don't you guys want to discuss Paine?
AW we all know how you feel.
BTS, if you justify yourself one more time, I'm going to be sick.
Lets all either leave the topic or learn something about Thomas Paine.
Brant
Thomas Paine "Age of Reason"
by BurnTheShips 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
Brother Apostate
It's nice to see that someone on JWD has the ability to start a subject in a kind and inviting way. Your comments on Paine's treatise are spot on, Burn. It's commendable that for the most part (minus the little ankle biters, Asleep&Witless and quirkyleftbrain) the thread is inviting intelligent discussion and comment. He clearly was a man of faith who simply was pointing out how Christianity had been hijacked by men for their own purposes, which is still the case today, imo.
I've always enjoyed Paine's writings, and as time permits I'll add my two cents as well.
BA
-
lrkr
OK- you guys got me reading this- now you have to put up with my comments and my BTT. 1st response- I can't believe that this guy wrote what he wrote 300 years ago and there are still fundamentalists in the world. What an intelligent, reasoned indictment of popular religious ideas. I love his reasoning on the subject of the ransom. If someone is convicted of murder and another person stands up and says, "I'll take the punishment for him" No one would consider that to be justice. And yet it is at the core of the whole set of dogma about redemption.
-
BurnTheShips
Reputed Deist Benjamin Franklin's advice:
Dear Sir
I have read your Manuscrit with some Attention. By the Arguments it contains against the Doctrine of a particular Providence, tho’ you allow a general Providence, you strike at the Foundation of all Religion: For without the Belief of a Providence that takes Cognizance of, guards and guides and may favour particular Persons, there is no Motive to Worship a Deity, to fear its Displeasure, or to pray for its Protection. I will not enter into any Discussion of your Principles, tho’ you seem to desire it; At present I shall only give you my Opinion that tho’ your Reasonings are subtle, and may prevail with some Readers, you will not succeed so as to change the general Sentiments of Mankind on that Subject, and the Consequence of printing this Piece will be a great deal of Odium drawn upon your self, Mischief to you and no Benefit to others. He that spits against the Wind, spits in his own Face. But were you to succeed, do you imagine any Good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous Life without the Assistance afforded by Religion; you having a clear Perception of the Advantages of Virtue and the Disadvantages of Vice, and possessing a Strength of Resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common Temptations. But think how great a Proportion of Mankind consists of weak and ignorant Men and Women, and of inexperienc’d and inconsiderate Youth of both Sexes, who have need of the Motives of Religion to restrain them from Vice, to support their Virtue, and retain them in the Practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great Point for its Security; And perhaps you are indebted to her originally that is to your Religious Education, for the Habits of Virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent Talents of reasoning on a less hazardous Subject, and thereby obtain Rank with our most distinguish’d Authors. For among us, it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots that a Youth to be receiv’d into the Company of Men, should prove his Manhood by beating his Mother. I would advise you therefore not to attempt unchaining the Tyger, but to burn this Piece before it is seen by any other Person, whereby you will save yourself a great deal of Mortification from the Enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of Regret and Repentance. If Men are so wicked as we now see them with Religion what would they be if without it? I intend this Letter itself as a Proof of my Friendship and therefore add no Professions of it, but subscribe simply Yours
-
lrkr
Interesting, Ben Franklin ever the pragmatist, didn't actually disagree with Paine, he just pointed to the results if people en masse rejected religion.
The point that Franklin misses, I think, is that when someone is taught to reject "vice" because of certain natural, negative consequences, there is a better likelihood of success among most people. If they are taught to reject vice because of the power of an "Almighty Punisher", they will be obedient so long as they believe in the "Almight Punisher." Once their believe breaks down, so does all resolve at avoiding vice.
I just finished reading "Age of Reason" last night. (took a few detours in reading other stuff along the way) A couple of thoughts:
- Writers, politicians, and philosophers were quite brilliant 200 years ago. Imagine if a national figure wrote like that today??!!!
- With such simple logic that defeats the whole premise of the bible, why is it that so many still cling to it??? It really is, as Paine describes, a book of violence, rape, and unimaginable brutality.
I would love to offer the work to more intellectual JW's as "astounding logical reasonings of one of the Founding Fathers" and see how long before the book gave them a "flat tire of faith"
-
Bring_the_Light
another thread up in smoke.
why don't you guys want to discuss Paine?
It must hurt them, BOOYAH! (paine, hurts them, get it, huh?huh? woo!, ahh stupid, sorry)
-
Bring_the_Light
Writers, politicians, and philosophers were quite brilliant 200 years ago. Imagine if a national figure wrote like that today??!!!
Indeed, this is why I have the one true religion. I'm a proponent of the the ideas of the founders of the United States and pretty much an agnostic about everything else. Come to the light, and be saved.
"The enlightenment" was, in my opinion, a time of intense intellectual explosion far greater and far more important than any other Renaissance, anywhere, ever. I love the United States because it is founded on reason.
Bring_the_Light (and HOOAH!)
-
lrkr
Now if we could just convince the current crop of politicians to live up to that legacy.
-
frankiespeakin
When it comes to the limited enlightenment of these men, I mavel too,,, but look forward to the time in our evolution when becomes common knowledge so as to make a change in government inevitable,, because the way the US is governed today has caused it to loose it's legitimacy,, warrenting it's replacement for the good of the species and not just the rich class that now reap the lion's share of preferential treament..