Where is God when it hurts?

by theistichedonist 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    I'll help you with some of this, theistic hedonist.

    3. In musing about this question of justice / evil, etc.. (and where do you as an atheist stand on this), I am not so much concerned with putting forward a proof for the existence of God based on our desires for justice, I am aiming at a different kind of question - namely: Are the kinds of things that we experience as people (for example, in the first post, our notions of justice, right / wrong, etc...) explicable if we are ultimately the product of an unguided / impersonal origin? If atheism is a defensible position, is it a fair conclusion to believe that people are the product of an impersonal / unguided process?

    It is beneficial to us as a species to work together and help each other out. Imagine if this wasn't the case. Where would your next meal come from? Well you'd have to go out and hunt for it or try and grow it. Luckily, we all have our seperate jobs. Some farm, some drive the vehicles transporting the food, some run the gas stations and the repair places to maintain the vehicles, some make the packaging, some run the shops that provide all the food in one place, some make those buildings, etc etc etc. It's all connected. Everyone helps everyone. Our survival rate wouldn't be so high if we did have to fend for ourselves. Seeing as we're here, it looks as though natural selection has ensured species that help each other get to pass on their genes.

    Can morals change? Sure. We're seeing it with the acceptance of homosexuals now, and last century we saw it with the equality of black people and women. It feels wrong inside if we discriminate against these groups, or at least it should - some are still behind the rest of us. We're influenced by ourselves and by the morals of others. Basically, it all comes from us as a species.

    We know what it's like to feel suffering, and we feel empathy for others who suffer. We help others, and we hope others will help us if we ever need it. A 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' arrangement, in which the rule seems to be so inherent now we don't even think about a reward. Most of us just like to help. There's probably not a person here who, if upon finding a baby crying alone at the side of the road, would leave it there and not care. Something in our brains would make it very uncomfortable for us to leave it. A good feeling to have in terms of keeping our species around. We would have died out pretty quickly if mothers just left their babies alone to look after themselves.

    Occasionally, some people do cause suffering to others. They don't seem to care. That's when we have to make them care, if not about what they're doing, then about a possible punishment if they get caught doing something society disagrees with. It would do our species no good to have a mad man going around killing people. Whatever the punishment involves, it has to involve making the person stop.

    If Gopher tells me to shut up, I will, but I can help with these others-

    the belief that what has ultimately produced us is time + (impersonal matter) + chance?

    One out. Change chance to natural selection.

    It seems to me that atheism involves a denial of God's existence that is due (in the view of the atheist) to the lack of proof to the contrary. Is this second definition your view? It seem that this view differentiates between agnosticism and atheism.

    Agnosticism is 'without knowledge'. Nobody knows if there is a god, so we're all agnostic, technically. The choice is whether to believe or not. Saying you don't believe isn't a denial. There are many things I don't believe in. I don't believe in the abonimable snowman, but I don't say it definitely doesn't exist. If there was evidence for it, I'd believe. But with no reason to, it's not something I'm on the fence about.

    Even with the atheist - agnostic - theist approach, with as much reason to believe in a god as there is to believe in the abonimable snowman, I say I don't believe, rather than I don't know. But even saying I don't believe isn't a denial.

    Do you think we get our morals from the Bible?

  • theistichedonist
    theistichedonist

    serotonin_wreath: Here is an article on morality / natural selection by Greg Koukl. A link to the article can be found at the very bottom of the article: (P.S. I had to post the article this way, because I can't figure out how to post certain things without getting an error that toasts all my writing. (P.S.S. I answer your question as to whether or not I get my morals from the Bible - at the bottom.) Recent studies suggest that animals are capable of rudimentary forms of moral behavior. God isn’t the source of morality, evolutionists say; Mother Nature is. The evolutionary answer, though, does not explain morality; it denies it. Monkey Morality: Can Evolution Explain Ethics? Greg Koukl Bongo is a chimp. He’s being punished by other members of the chimpanzee band for not sharing his bananas. Bongo is selfish. Bad Bongo. Moral rule: Chimps shouldn’t be selfish. One of the strongest evidences for the existence of God is man’s unique moral nature. C.S. Lewis argues in Mere Christianity that there is a persistent moral law that represents the ethical foundation of all human cultures. This, he says, is evidence for the God who is the author of the moral law. Not everyone agrees. Scenarios like the one above have been offered as evidence for rudimentary forms of morality among animals, especially the “higher” primates like chimpanzees. This suggests that morality in humans is not unique and can be explained by the natural process of evolution without appeal to a divine Lawgiver. This view of morality is one of the conclusions of the new science of evolutionary psychology. Its adherents advance a simple premise: The mind, just like every part of the physical body, is a product of evolution. Everything about human personality—marital relationships, parental love, friendships, dynamics among siblings, social climbing, even office politics—can be explained by the forces of neo-Darwinian evolution. Even the moral threads that make up the fabric of society are the product of natural selection. Morality can be reduced to chemical relationships in the genes chosen by different evolutionary needs in the physical environment. Love and hate; feelings of guilt and remorse; gratitude and envy; even the virtues of kindness, faithfulness, or self-control can all be explained mechanistically through the cause and effect of chance genetic mutations and natural selection. One notable example of this challenge to the transcendent nature of morality comes from the book The Moral Animal—Why We Are the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology, by Robert Wright. How Morals Evolve The Blind Moral-Maker In his popular defense of evolution, The Blind Watchmaker, Richard Dawkins acknowledges that the biological world looks designed, but that this appearance is deceiving. The appearance of intelligent order is really the result of the workings of natural selection. Robert Wright holds the same view regarding man’s psychological features, including morality. The strongest evidence for this analysis seems to be the explanatory power of the evolutionary paradigm when dealing with moral conduct. The argument rests on the nature of natural selection itself: If within a species there is variation among individuals in their hereditary traits, and some traits are more conducive to survival and reproduction than others, then those traits will (obviously) become more widespread within the population. The result (obviously) is that the species’ aggregate pool of hereditary traits changes.[1] Wright argues from effect back to cause, asking what is the simplest, most elegant solution adequate to explain the effects we see. To Wright, the evolutionary explanation is “obvious.” In order to survive, animals must adapt to changing conditions. Through the process of natural selection, naturalistic forces “choose” certain behavior patterns that allow the species to continue to exist. We call those patterns “morality.” Wired for Morality The thesis that evolution explains all moral conduct requires that such conduct be genetically determined. Morality rides on the genes, as it were, and one generation passes on favorable morality to the next. Wright sees a genetic connection with a whole range of emotional capabilities. He talks about “genes inclining a male to love his offspring,”[2] and romantic love that was not only invented by evolution, but corrupted by it.[3] Consider these comments: If a woman’s “fidelity gene” (or her “infidelity gene”) shapes her behavior in a way that helps get copies of itself, into future generations in large numbers, then that gene will by definition flourish.[4] [emphasis in the original] Beneath all the thoughts and feelings and temperamental differences that marriage counselors spend their time sensitively assessing are the stratagems of the genes—cold, hard equations composed of simple variables.[5] Some mothers have a genetic predisposition to love their children, so the story goes, and this genetic predisposition to be loving is favored by natural selection. Consequently, there are more women who are “good” mothers. What is the evidence, though, that moral virtues are genetic, a random combination of molecules? Is the fundamental difference between a Mother Teresa and a Hitler their chromosomal makeup? If so, then how could we ever praise Mother Teresa? How could a man like Adolph Hitler be truly guilty? Wright offers no such empirical evidence. He seems to assume that moral qualities are in the genes because he must; his paradigm will not work otherwise. Wright’s Double-Standard Morality Above Morality In a public relations piece promoting his book, Robert Wright says, “My hope is that people will use the knowledge [in this book] not only to improve their lives—as a source of ‘self-help’—but as cause to treat other people more decently.” [emphasis mine] This statement captures a major flaw in Wright’s analysis. His entire thesis is that chance evolution exhausts what it means to be moral. Morality is descriptive, a mere function of the environment selecting patterns of behavior that assist and benefit the growth and survival of the species. Yet he frequently lapses, unconsciously making reference to a morality that seems to transcend nature. Take this comment as an example: “Human beings are a species splendid in their array of moral equipment, tragic in their propensity to misuse it, and pathetic in their constitutional ignorance of the misuse.”[6] [emphasis mine] Wright reflects on the moral equipment randomly given to us by nature, and then bemoans our immoral use of it with words like “tragic,” “pathetic,” and “misuse.” He writes, “Go above and beyond the call of a smoothly functioning conscience; help those who aren’t likely to help you in return, and do so when nobody’s watching. This is one way to be a truly moral animal.”[7] It’s almost as if there are two categories of morality, nature’s morality and a transcendent standard used to judge nature’s morality. But where did this transcendent standard come from? It’s precisely this higher moral law that needs explaining. If transcendent morality judges the “morality” that evolution is responsible for, then it can’t itself be accounted for by evolution. Social Darwinism Like many evolutionists, Wright recoils from social Darwinism. “To say that something is ‘natural’ is not to say that it is good. There is no reason to adopt natural selection’s ‘values’ as our own.”[8] Just because nature exploits the weak, he argues, doesn’t mean we are morally obliged to do so. Natural selection’s indifference to the suffering of the weak is not something we need to emulate. Nor should we care whether murder, robbery, and rape are in some sense “natural.” It is for us to decide how abhorrent we find such things and how hard we want to fight them.[9] Wright argues that the reductio ad absurdum argument from social Darwinism is flawed. Though life is an unregulated state of nature is, as 17th century English philosophy Thomas Hobbes described it, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short,”[10] we’re not required to take the “survival of the fittest” as a moral guideline. Evolutionists may be right when they argue that we’re not compelled to adopt the morality of evolution. The danger of social Darwinism, though, is not that society is required to adopt the law of the jungle, but that it is allowed to. The exploitation of the weak by the strong is morally benign according to this view. What Darwinists cannot do is give us a reason why we ought not simply copy nature and destroy those who are weak, unpleasant, costly, or just plain boring. If all moral options are legitimate, then it’s legitimate for the strong to rule the weak. No moral restraints protect the weak, because moral restraints simply wouldn’t exist. Monkey Morality Recent studies have attempted to show that animals exhibit rudimentary moral behavior. In one case, a group of chimpanzees “punished” one “selfish” member of their band by withholding food from it. Apparently, the moral rule was this: Chimps shouldn’t be selfish. Conduct, Motive, and Intent There are some problems with this assessment. First of all, drawing conclusions about animal morality simply from external behavior reduces morality to conduct. Why should we accept that morality is exhaustively described by behavior? True morality entails non-behavioral elements, too, like intent and motive. One can’t infer actual moral obligations from the mere fact of a chimp’s conduct. One might talk descriptively about a chimp’s behavior, but no conclusion about morality follows from this. One can observe that chimps in community share food, and when they do they survive better. But you can’t conclude from this that Bongo, the chimp, ought to share his bananas, and if he doesn’t, then he’s immoral because he hasn’t contributed to the survival of his community. Further, in fixing blame, we distinguish between an act done by accident and the very same act done on purpose. The behavior is the same, but the intent is different. We don’t usually blame people for accidents: The boy didn’t intend to trip the old lady. We also give attention to the issue of motive. We withhold blame even if the youngster tripped the old lady on purpose if the motive is acceptable: He tripped her to keep her from running in front of a train. Motive and intent cannot be determined simply by looking at behavior. In fact, some “good” behavior—giving to the poor, for example—might turn out to be tainted if the motive and intent are wrong: being thought well of with no concern for the recipient. Indeed, it seems one can be immoral without any behavior at all, e.g. plotting an evil deed that one never has the opportunity to carry out. Morality informs behavior, judging it either good or bad, but it’s not identical to behavior. Morality is something deeper than habitual patterns of physical interaction. Therefore, one can’t draw conclusions about animal morality simply based on what he observes in their conduct. Morality: Explained or Denied? This leads us to the second problem, which runs much deeper. When morality is reduced to patterns of behavior chosen by natural selection for its survival value, then morality is not explained; it’s denied. Wright admits as much. Regarding the conscience he says: The conscience doesn’t make us feel bad the way hunger feels bad, or good the way sex feels good. It makes us feel as if we have done something that’s wrong or something that’s right. Guilty or not guilty. It is amazing that a process as amoral and crassly pragmatic as natural selection could design a mental organ that makes us feel as if we’re in touch with higher truth. Truly a shameless ploy.[11] [emphasis mine] Evolutionists like Wright are ultimately forced to admit that what we think is a “higher truth” of morality turns out to be a “shameless ploy” of nature, a description of animal behavior conditioned by the environment for survival. We’ve given that conduct a label, they argue. We call it morality. But there is no real right and wrong. Does Bongo, the chimp, actually exhibit genuine moral behavior? Does he understand the difference between right and wrong? Does he make principled choices to do what’s right? Is he worthy of blame and punishment for doing wrong? Of course not, Wright says. Bongo merely does in a primitive way what humans do in a more sophisticated way. We respond according to our genetic conditioning, a program “designed” by millions of years of evolution. The evolutionary approach is not an explanation of morality; it’s a denial of morality. It explains why we think moral truths exist when, in fact, they don’t. Why Be a Good Boy Tomorrow? This observation uncovers the most serious objection to the idea that evolution is adequate to explain morality. There is one question that can never be answered by any evolutionary assessment of ethics. The question is this: Why ought I be moral tomorrow? One of the distinctives of morality is its “oughtness,” its moral incumbency. Assessments of mere behavior, however, are descriptive only. Since morality is essentially prescriptive—telling what should be the case, as opposed to what is the case—and since all evolutionary assessments of moral behavior are descriptive, then evolution cannot account for the most important thing that needs to be explained: morality’s “oughtness.” The question that really needs to be answered is: “Why shouldn’t the chimp (or a human, for that matter) be selfish?” The evolutionary answer might be that when we’re selfish, we hurt the group. That answer, though, presumes another moral value: We ought to be concerned about the welfare of the group. Why should that concern us? Answer: If the group doesn’t survive, then the species doesn’t survive. But why should I care about the survival of the species? Here’s the problem. All of these responses meant to explain morality ultimately depend on some prior moral notion to hold them together. It’s going to be hard to explain, on an evolutionary view of things why I should not be selfish, or steal, or rape, or even kill tomorrow without smuggling morality into the answer. The evolutionary explanation disembowels morality, reducing it to mere descriptions of conduct. The best the Darwinist explanation can do—if it succeeds at all—is explain past behavior. It cannot inform future behavior. The essence of morality, though, is not description, but prescription. Evolution may be an explanation for the existence of conduct we choose to call moral, but it gives no explanation why I should obey any moral rules in the future. If one countered that we have a moral obligation to evolve, then the game would be up, because if we have moral obligations prior to evolution, then evolution itself can’t be their source. Evolutionists Are Wrong about Ethics Darwinists opt for an evolutionary explanation for morality without sufficient justification. In order to make their naturalistic explanation work, “morality” must reside in the genes. “Good,” beneficial tendencies can then be chosen by natural selection. Nature, through the mechanics of genetic chemistry, cultivates behaviors we call morality. This creates two problems. First, evolution doesn’t explain what it’s meant to explain. It can only account for preprogrammed behavior, which doesn’t qualify as morality. Moral choices, by their nature, are made by free agents, not dictated by internal mechanics. Secondly, the Darwinist explanation reduces morality to mere descriptions of behavior. The morality that evolution needs to account for, however, entails much more than conduct. Minimally, it involves motive and intent as well. Both are non-physical elements which can’t, even in principle, evolve in a Darwinian sense. Further, this assessment of morality, being descriptive only, ignores the most fundamental moral question of all: Why should I be moral tomorrow? Evolution cannot answer that question. It can only attempt to describe why humans acted in a certain way in the past. Morality dictates what future behavior ought to be. Evolution does not explain morality. Bongo is not a bad chimp, he’s just a chimp. No moral rules apply to him. Eat the banana, Bongo. [1]Robert Wright, The Moral Animal—Why We Are the Way We Are: The New Science of Evolutionary Psychology (New York: Pantheon Books, 1994), p. 23. [2]Ibid., p. 58 [3]Ibid., p. 59. [4]Ibid., p. 56. [5]Ibid., p. 88. [6]Ibid., p. 13. [7]Ibid., p. 377. [8]Ibid., p. 31. [9]Ibid., p. 102. [10]Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, 1651. [11]Wright, p. 212. © 2005 Stand to Reason ARR | 1438 East 33rd Street, Signal Hill, CA 90755 Voicemail (800) 2-REASON TM | Local phone (562) 595-7333 | Fax (562) 595-7332 | [email protected] http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6221 So here goes the trick: You: "Do you get your morals from the Bible." Me: (Which is not precisely the answer that I would give if I decide to respond.) "Yep." You: "There are certain things that the Bible affirms that I find morally repulsive: number one, number two, number three, ad infinitum...Can you explain to me [theistichedonist] why you view the Bible as a source of morality when there are so many obviously immoral things that the God of the Bible does?" Me: "Duh..." You: "That's why I don't believe that the Bible is a source of moral authority - case closed." I am aiming at a far more modest goal: I want to know how - given an atheistic / agnostic / evolutionary view of reality - you ground any moral claim. Such as: The God of the Bible is immoral, etc... Evolution, atheism and agnosticism don't cut the mustard, because in each belief system, the telos (purpose) of humans is necessarily unknown. How can you know that people shouldn't be opressed, killed, etc.. if humanity's purpose itself is unknown? Atheistic / agnostic arguments about what is immoral are much like a person telling me that I have driven my car to the wrong destination while simultaneously insisting insisting that the destination is unknown. To say that a person shouldn't be treated in such X poor way only works if the purpose of a person is known. Neither atheism, nor agnosticism can furnish this knowledge. It is quite easy to scold others for their religious beliefs while conveniently neglecting to sufficiently ground morality yourself. (BTW - naturalistic evolution doesn't ground morals) In this arrangement (which, up to this point you have stuck to beautifully), you enable yourself to condemn any moral pronouncements you wish! Ravi Zacharias indicts secularists for doing the very same thing that scores of atheists, agnostics and evolutionist do: “…one cannot defend the particulars of a moral choice without first defending the theory in general upon which any choice is made. Secularism [as well as atheism & agnosticism], on the other hand, can defend any choice because it is never compelled to defend its first principles, which are basically reduced to an antireligious bias. But secularists do not take into account that on their own terms no position needs to be defended if a commitment to it is sufficient reason in itself. If it is believed that all moralizing is purely one’s private view then ought not that view itself be kept private? The secularist never answers how he or she determines whether anything is wrong with anything except by sheer choice. Secular belief grants itself privileges that it does not equally distribute.” Ravi Zacharias, Deliver Us From Evil: Restoring the Soul in a Disintegrating Culture (Dallas, TX: Word, 1996), 59. What is true of secularists in the above quote is true of every atheist / agnostic / evolutionist that I have ever met. Thank-you for taking the time to interact! Forgive me if my tone has offended you. I don't hold the beliefs that I do because I am some smart fella. Of my own, I am neither smart nor good. The tenor of your posts this far has been very kind. I sincerely appreciate and admire you for your restraint! theistichedonist

  • theistichedonist
    theistichedonist

    Sorry for the stinky format of my previous post! I was trying to copy my post from MS Word, but I keep getting an error and losing my post. Any help with this would be much appreciated!

  • parakeet
    parakeet

    theistichedonist wrote: "1. How, in an atheistic worldview does a person who persists in abuse (particularly religious abuse), mind-control, evil, etc... get repaid for the evil that they have sown? One of the odd features of this life (if indeed our three-score-and-ten is all that there is), is that we as people have the frightening capacity to sow more evil than our physical bodies can possibly pay for."

    Serotonin said it best: "There is no atheistic worldview." Atheism is nonbelief in the existence of God, not belief in something else.

    As for criminals getting punished for their crimes -- just because you would like to believe that justice will eventually catch up with criminals doesn't mean it will happen. Sometimes they get away with it; sometimes they don't. The Bible says God sees every sparrow that falls, yet they fall just the same. Where is the justice in that?





    The innate impulse for justice to punish those who commit atrocities is not the sole provenance of Christians. All through history, Greeks, Romans, Native Americans, and other pagan societies have formed their own systems for dealing with crime. The principles of these systems can still be found in our own judicial systems.

    Where is God when it hurts? Nowhere to be found. The responsibility to administer justice to criminals rests with all adult human beings, as it always has.

  • serotonin_wraith
    serotonin_wraith

    Thanks for the article. (I'll do my best to read it!)

    The first part lays out the morality from evolution argument. Good stuff.

    Some mothers have a genetic predisposition to love their children, so the story goes, and this genetic predisposition to be loving is favored by natural selection. Consequently, there are more women who are "good" mothers. What is the evidence, though, that moral virtues are genetic, a random combination of molecules? Is the fundamental difference between a Mother Teresa and a Hitler their chromosomal makeup?

    As I mentioned, our morals can be influenced by others. It doesn't just come from us as individuals. The author goes to the trouble of laying out the (opposition) case for certain genes being passed on, and now calls them 'random'. If specific genes/ organisation of moleules are being passed on due to natural selection, then it's not random now, is it? They have been specifically selected for by nature.

    Is the fundamental difference between a Mother Teresa and a Hitler their chromosomal makeup? If so, then how could we ever praise Mother Teresa? How could a man like Adolph Hitler be truly guilty? Wright offers no such empirical evidence.

    In some instances, I'd say yes. Someone who is mentally handicapped may be that way from birth. Someone with a tendency to be violent may be that way from birth too. But it's not just about that. It's the classic 'nature or nurture' argument. I think nature AND nurture can influence us. For example, a Muslim who lives a good life may be influenced by others to kill infidels, and may justify that behaviour by thinking Allah wants him to. His 'nature' hasn't made him violent, but outside influence has. Hitler thought his race was superior. If he'd been raised in a different culture and given different values, maybe he wouldn't have wanted non-his own culture/race killed. Who can say?

    It's a bit rich asking for evidence for this when none has been provided for a god. We can observe genes and molecules, they do exist. We cannot observe a god. Which is the most plausible explanation? Perhaps the things we KNOW exist.

    This statement captures a major flaw in Wright’s analysis. His entire thesis is that chance evolution exhausts what it means to be moral. Morality is descriptive, a mere function of the environment selecting patterns of behavior that assist and benefit the growth and survival of the species. Yet he frequently lapses, unconsciously making reference to a morality that seems to transcend nature.

    What's with this 'chance evolution'? NATURAL SELECTION. It's not chance.

    Wright reflects on the moral equipment randomly given to us by nature, and then bemoans our immoral use of it with words like "tragic," "pathetic," and "misuse."

    Not random . :)

    "Go above and beyond the call of a smoothly functioning conscience; help those who aren’t likely to help you in return, and do so when nobody’s watching. This is one way to be a truly moral animal."[7] It’s almost as if there are two categories of morality, nature’s morality and a transcendent standard used to judge nature’s morality.

    We please ourselves if we do something good when nobody's watching. WE know we've done it, and we take pleasure in that. It's still nature. If nobody knew the baby was crying at the side of the road, could we leave it there? Not without experiencing great amounts of personal guilt for it. WE'D feel the effects, even if no one else did.

    Though life is an unregulated state of nature is, as 17th century English philosophy Thomas Hobbes described it, "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short,"[10] we’re not required to take the "survival of the fittest" as a moral guideline. Evolutionists may be right when they argue that we’re not compelled to adopt the morality of evolution.

    Not all species are the same. The female praying mantis will bite the head off its mate after sex. It gives the offspring a better chance of survival. With humans, that's not needed. Morality is causing the least amount of suffering, while keeping in mind our need to survive as a species at a particular moment in history. It's not all survival of the fittest either. All humans are capable of so much, given the chance. Stephen Hawkins' physical abilities don't seem that good for the gene pool, but look at what the man has done for our species' knowledge! We all offer our own advantages to humanity. Some are just more obvious than others. A 'destroying the weak' argument won't work.

    First of all, drawing conclusions about animal morality simply from external behavior reduces morality to conduct. Why should we accept that morality is exhaustively described by behavior? True morality entails non-behavioral elements, too, like intent and motive. One can’t infer actual moral obligations from the mere fact of a chimp’s conduct. One might talk descriptively about a chimp’s behavior, but no conclusion about morality follows from this.

    Doesn't conduct come from the mind? The mind thinks, and then the body acts in a way the mind finds most appropriate. So if someone acts good, then the mind (controlling the body) has decided this is the right course of action.

    Further, in fixing blame, we distinguish between an act done by accident and the very same act done on purpose. The behavior is the same, but the intent is different. We don’t usually blame people for accidents: The boy didn’t intend to trip the old lady. We also give attention to the issue of motive. We withhold blame even if the youngster tripped the old lady on purpose if the motive is acceptable: He tripped her to keep her from running in front of a train. Motive and intent cannot be determined simply by looking at behavior. In fact, some "good" behavior—giving to the poor, for example—might turn out to be tainted if the motive and intent are wrong: being thought well of with no concern for the recipient.

    Motive is important. If someone didn't mean to do harm, then there's no harm in letting them off. It's unlikely they'll do it again. But if someone wanted to hurt another, those kind of people need to be stopped from doing it again.

    Morality is something deeper than habitual patterns of physical interaction.

    The brain is still a series of physical interactions. Just because it's encased behind the skull, it doesn't mean it's not physical.

    The evolutionary approach is not an explanation of morality; it’s a denial of morality. It explains why we think moral truths exist when, in fact, they don’t.

    Morals change, as I also noted.

    We ought to be concerned about the welfare of the group. Why should that concern us? Answer: If the group doesn’t survive, then the species doesn’t survive. But why should I care about the survival of the species? Here’s the problem. All of these responses meant to explain morality ultimately depend on some prior moral notion to hold them together. It’s going to be hard to explain, on an evolutionary view of things why I should not be selfish, or steal, or rape, or even kill tomorrow without smuggling morality into the answer.

    Survival of our species is the most important thing. If our very survival as a species relied on killing every ginger haired person, we would do it. We may not like to, but if it's a choice between that and watching our species die out completely, we'll choose the lesser of the two 'evils'. We care about the survival of our species because its within us to care. It's been passed on via evolution too.

    Evolution may be an explanation for the existence of conduct we choose to call moral, but it gives no explanation why I should obey any moral rules in the future.

    Err, to keep surviving into the future?

    if we have moral obligations prior to evolution, then evolution itself can’t be their source.

    Prior? Everything is constantly evolving. From the first spark of life it started.

    Minimally, it involves motive and intent as well. Both are non-physical elements which can’t, even in principle, evolve in a Darwinian sense.

    Non-physical. Really?

    How can you know that people shouldn't be opressed, killed, etc.. if humanity's purpose itself is unknown?

    Humanity decides what the purpose is. Humanity has decided that humans shouldn't be made to suffer. I like the mock argument you presented. You wisely avoid the implications of not agreeing to every law your god has provided, but instead of talking about that, you want me to justify my morality.

    In this arrangement (which, up to this point you have stuck to beautifully), you enable yourself to condemn any moral pronouncements you wish!

    I'm not sure what you mean. I cannot condemn anything I wish. Some things go against my own morality, residing in my own brain at this moment in time.

    If it is believed that all moralizing is purely one’s private view then ought not that view itself be kept private? The secularist never answers how he or she determines whether anything is wrong with anything except by sheer choice. Secular belief grants itself privileges that it does not equally distribute.

    Yes, humans do choose what is right and wrong. Not just individually, but as a collective. You are just as tied to that as I am. Your choice not to keep slaves or treat women as inferior (I assume at this point) doesn't come from a better understanding of the scriptures, it comes from your own brain and the influence of the society you were raised in. Other humans.

    Your tone doesn't offend me at all, I never take these kinds of conversations personally. If I've missed anything, please let me know. It was quite difficult reading all of that.

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