No such thing as Ghosts...

by Abaddon 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    I remember this article from when it came out; found it whilst looking for info on low frequency sound, it's very interesting, but was ignored by-and-large by the spook community as it's less rimantic than dead grandpa's.

    http://users.iafrica.com/s/sa/salbu/apollo/HumA.html

    Monday 29 June 1998
    Science finds reasons for ghostly'hauntings'

    ULTRA-LOW SOUND WAVES BLAMED FOR VISIONS, FEELINGS OF TERROR
    Robert Matthews

    The Sunday Telegraph LONDON -- Ghosts may have a scientific explanation after all.

    New research into a real-life "haunting" has revealed that all the classic signs of ghosts can be explained as the result of very low-frequency sound waves trapped inside buildings. The sound waves -- capable of being triggered by nothing more than the wind passing over walls -- cannot be heard by human ears. But scientific tests have revealed that they have effects on the human body that can account for visions of wraith-like appearances, and even the feelings of cold and terror that accompany them.

    The explanation emerged after a chance discovery by a university academic who found himself involved in a haunting late one night in the laboratory of a medical manufacturing firm in England. Vic Tandy, an expert in computer-assisted learning at Coventry University, had been told that the building was haunted, but dismissed it as a joke.

    He changed his mind after the events that unfolded one night as he worked alone in the office. "I began to feel increasingly uncomfortable, " he recalls. "I was sweating but cold, and the feeling of depression was noticeable -- but there was also something else. It was as though something was in the room with me. " "Then I became aware that I was being watched, and a figure slowly emerged to my left. It was indistinct and on the periphery of my vision, but it moved just as I would expect a person to. It was grey, and made no sound. The hair was standing up on the back of my neck -- I was terrified. " Mr. Tandy plucked up courage to look at the apparition face-on -- only to see it fade and then vanish. "I decided I must be cracking up, and went home. "

    The explanation emerged the following morning. Mr. Tandy, a fencing enthusiast, was modifying one of his swords and had left the blade clamped in a vice while he went in search of oil. "When I returned, I noticed that the free end of the blade was frantically vibrating up and down, " he said. Mr. Tandy, a trained engineer, realized the blade might be receiving energy from very low-frequency sound waves filling the laboratory -- so low that they could not be heard.

    Tests duly revealed the existence of a "standing wave" trapped in the lab which reached a peak in intensity next to Mr Tandy's desk, where he had been working when he saw the "ghost. " "It turned out to be caused by a new extraction fan which was making the air vibrate at about 19 cycles per second. When the fan's mounting was altered, the ghost left with the standing wave. "

    Working with Dr. Tony Lawrence of the university's school of health, Mr. Tandy has now discovered the significance of this rate of vibration. In research published in the latest issue of the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, they reveal that "infra-sound" around this frequency has been linked to a whole host of physiological effects --including breathlessness, shivering and feelings of fear.

    Most significantly, research by NASA, the U. S. space agency, has shown that the human eyeball has a resonant frequency of 18 cycles a second, at which it starts to vibrate in sympathy to infra-sound. "This would cause a serious smearing of vision, " says Dr. Lawrence.

    While acoustic experts have known about the health effects of infra-sound for many years, before now no one had made the link to ghost sightings. Mr. Tandy said he has since come across two more "hauntings" where low-frequency sound may be to blame. "One occurred in a corridor of a building that had a wind-tunnel in the basement, and it was operating at the time of the sighting, " he said. He added, however, that the wind blowing over a window in a side wall of a long corridor might be enough to create a standing wave, similar to that formed by a person blowing over the neck of a bottle. "It would be interesting to look at reports of haunted houses, to see if the "ghosts" tend to appear in long, windy corridors. "

    The discovery of the infra-sound effect is already creating a stir among experts in paranormal phenomena. "It is very interesting, as it gives us another scientific variable we can fit into the picture, " said Professor David Fontana of the University of Cardiff, a former president of the Society of Psychical Research. But Mr. Fontana insisted that infra-sound was unlikely to be the final answer. "It cannot explain those cases where there is some interaction between the person and the apparition -- as there is with poltergeists, for example. The problem is that whenever you get a potential explanation like this, you find that there are a whole lot of things it cannot account for. "

    Keep on rocking in the free world...

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Very interesting, Abaddon. There are many scientific explanations for so called ghost sightings, but as the article said at the end, there are some phenomena that are not explained, as yet.

    I believe ghosts exist. Its often said that in order to "see" ghosts you must raise your own vibrational level (via meditation, sound mantras, etc.), so maybe these high vibration sound waves facilitate the sighting of a real entity?

    Sirona

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hi Sirona;

    Don't get me wrong; people are allowed to believe what they want. I have friends I love and respect who believe stuff I think is just plain silly.

    What I object to is people acting like they have been accused of lying because their personal subjective reality is not accepted as scientific proof. I wouldn't expect anyone to believe me if I saw aliens, god or ghosts, unless I could verify it or prove it in some way, so why should anyone else get a break?

    Generally people offering subjective, unverifiable, non-repeatable evidence as proof of god, ghosts, ickle baby Jesus, healing, etc., do not have a great level of scientific knowledge, or are parrotting seemingly valid arguement by apologists that they do not fully understand, but are seizing on eagerly as a validation of their beliefs.

    That's an observation, not a criticism. If God spoke to me, I'd probably believe it even if I couldn't prove it to anyone! So I'm not saying people who believe such things are stupid, just maybe sometimes that they don't understand why their beliefs are not accepted by the more scientifically minded.

    I have to say I'd LOVE to see a good explination of what you mean by;

    "in order to "see" ghosts you must raise your own vibrational level".

    This just sounds like something that people who have seen ghosts say to those that haven't. It's an unanswerable retort as it stands, as it means nothing in scientific terms.

    It's just a phrase borrowed from physics and applied to the paranormal in the same way that chunks of science terminology are borrowed and formed into convincing yet meanless sentences in Star Trek... 'Captain, if we don't get the flux capacitence of the Wharp Core down we're going to have a cascading chain reaction overflowing the buffers and the entire engineering area will be flooded with Thoron radiation.'

    Sounds great! Means NOTHING.

    It's very simple, and has been done for centuries, with changes over the vocabulary over time to keep the trick working. Shamans. Snake Oil salesmen. Fortune Tellers, etc..

    Again, I have to emphasize Iam not saying that the people using this langauge are always conciously aware of what they are doing. They are quite probably genuine in their beliefs; look at what we all believed once!

    I'd love it if I could find one shred of proof for the paranormal. I love the idea of mind powers. I love the idea of existence after death. I just can't find one piece of decent evidence. There are areas that have a 'might be scientifically proved in a few decades' hanging over them... but they are far and few between...

    Keep on rocking in the free world...

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    velly velly interestink!

  • Mommie Dark
    Mommie Dark

    Fascinating!

    We used to live in a really old log home here in NE OH. It was made of huge chestnut logs, the likes of which no longer exist since the blight took all the chestnut trees.

    On very humid or windy days you could hear voices in an otherwise empty house; a man, a woman calling, children laughing. It wasn't 'creepy' coz it was so cozy-family-sounding. My dad said it was sound virations trapped in the wood, and the waves were released under the right atmospheric conditions.

    Sure enough, when we took a drinking glass and stood with ear pressed to it on one of the windowlogs, the voices were amplified so you could actually hear snatches of words.

    Was Pop right? Who knows.

    The older I get the more convinced I become that there is a rational explanation for even the strangest phenomena.

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    He he, I shoulda known that if I used a phrase like that I'd be asked to prove it! LOL!

    Those who believe in ghosts dont necessarily have to prove it. I dont have to prove it. I cant prove it! I think, as Mommie Dark says that there are explanations to things and we just havent discovered them yet. Those explanations may reveal that there is no such thing as ghosts...then again, it may reveal that there is an energy that continues after our physical death, which can manifest in various ways (who knows?).

    I refuse to only think within the confines of proven scientific fact. I study psychology, as as many will know, there are some wierd and wonderful psychological theories out there. One day, we might be able to prove one of them wrong, until then, we consider that it *might* be right.

    I have to say I'd LOVE to see a good explination of what you mean by;
    "in order to "see" ghosts you must raise your own vibrational level".

    now, you have quoted me a little out of context because I didnt actually assert that MYSELF. I said "its often said that in order to see ghosts you must raise your own vibrational level" and I was suggesting that this *might* be a reason why sound vibrations can allow us to see the entity. Im not saying I actually believe that, because today is the first time I've seen the explanation relating to sound waves. Often I state theories....because Ive been taught to emphasise lots of different arguments on something, in order to facilitate further discussion. You will note that my last sentence was, in actuality, a question...I intended to prompt a comment from you of this concept. You gave details of sound vibrations in buildings possibly affecting our minds and causing us to see strange things...I suggested maybe those sound vibrations DO affect our minds, but that influence *allows* us to see these entities (not that they are purely an hallucination).

    About an explanation for this comment (about raising vibrational level)and more detail of who said it, well I'd have to have a look around for where I read it. I will try tonight.

    I agree with you that lots of jargon is used by those involved in so called "paranormal" (incidentally, that word means little to me because I think that these things are "normal" but just not accepted by us or fully understood as normal..whatever that is...he he). Remember, a lot of jargon is used by ANY group putting forth their ideas. They have to invent jargon to explain what they mean!! Even scientists have a hell of a lot of jargon!

    and this:

    They are quite probably genuine in their beliefs; look at what we all believed once!

    quite frankly you hereby elevate your own beliefs and in fact "science" as being better than other people's. This I disagree with, because "what we all believed once" was OK for then, and some people still believe in God and suchlike (which is an ancient belief of course). It is not your place to ridicule that and speak of others ideas in terms of "aww look at those silly fools, they are genuine!"

    People ridiculed scientists who suggested microscopic bacteria existed which could cause illness. Why? Because they couldnt prove it and see it with their own eyes. I accept the possibility of the existance of things that we dont see with our eyes. I also accept that all these things are THEORIES and not proven, but I can believe what I choose nontheless. Some catholics call this "faith".

    Sirona

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Correction:
    Sorry, I just realised that Mommy dark didnt say "we havent discovered them yet", but just that as she gets older she is more convinced that there is a rational explanation for even the strangest phenomena.
    Sirona

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Interesting discussion Sirona.

    I didn't mean to take the sentence that I quoted out of context, and was thinking more of the sentence abstractly than any assertion you might have been making, as the sentence seemed emblematic of a mindset. As indeed it is, even if it's not yours!

    As for deciding whether my beliefs are better or worse than others, or whether I have the right to ridicule those beliefs I find ridiculous, well...

    I agree that everyone has a right to believe what they want, provided it doesn't harm anyone. Even those that believe things harmful to other people have a right to that belief, but if they act on those beliefs they also have a right to be locked away.

    I respect someone's right to hold an opinion. But, by the fact I believe everyone has a right to an opinion, I too have a right to an opinion. And sometimes that opinion will be "That's ridiculous".

    Yes, I do think that a scientific opinion will more often than not be better than an unscientific opinion. Because scientific opinions SHOULD be objective, verifiable, repeatable, quantifiable. Obviously, they don't always have those characteristics. But they do, more often than subjective personal opinion.

    Personal subjective experiences are just that; subjective. If they can't be repeated or proved why should I base my belief structure on them? The person that had them can!

    Maybe I've not explained what I mean clearly... we all have our subjective realities. You, me, everybody.

    Some people have experiences in their subjective realities which they interpret in a way I find objectively unprovable.

    For example; someone notices lots of weird events in the house, breezes, lights being on in the morning when they were off at night, noises, etc. Their grandfather died two weeks ago. Therefore it is grandpa.

    I say, fine, that's your belief. I don't share it, but I am sure you are genuine and experienced those things and believe genuinely that it was your grandad.

    What's wrong with that? I REALLY mean it, although, just as some scientists are fraudulent, so are some people asking for subjective belief.

    I know from experience that when you say it, the person normally doesn't listen to the fact you are accepting their reality, as they are too busy trying to get you to accept their reality as your reality based on their say-so and nothing else. And that bugs me. Lay of my subjective reality, I'll lay off yours I suppose is a way of putting it.

    It's the faith thing, isn't it? Take Rex B13 as an example. If you could offer definative proof of evolution and the absence of god, he would still 'believe' as he's had his proof by subjective experience, and all the Science papers in the world won't change that. Shelby seems to genuinely believe she has her little chats with god. Well, I think she's probably mad, but I'm sure she doesn't THINK she's making stuff up. When they parade their glowing subjective opinons, as thogh they were gospel, one does feel a certain need to ask them for objective proof, but it's POINTLESS (although sometime fun if it's slow at work).

    You seem to say that one should not view other beliefs as better or worse than your own. Is that right? If it is I disagree.

    Fancy a witch trial? Or, maybe we should rip a few hearts out of Prisoners-of-Wars, like the Aztecs did, to make sure the sun carries on rising. Yes, extreme examples.

    How's about Scientologists? I know a fair bit, and I think that is one of the silliest religions ever designed for profit by a Sci-Fi author, but what do I know, I'm not 'Clear', and am probably just being reactive (amazing similarities between Scientology and Buddism on some levels).

    But Mormons, well, Elohi, or whatever, is on his planet with lots of wives, making spirit babies that come to Earth, and if you're a good moron (whoops... my spelling... ) you'll get your own planet and harem. I really don't think I have to GIVE my opinion of how STUPID that is.

    It's not just religion either; see the post about smoking. And the nature/nurture debate. Anyone on either one side or the other is an obvious fool as it's obviosuly BOTH, to one extent or the other.

    Eugenics? Nasty dangerous stuff. Genetically Modified Food? We've been doing it for centuries, there's far more worrying things going on.

    We do it (evaluating beliefs as better or worse) everyday all the time, and if we are to find anything approaching a personal truth or paradigm for life, we HAVE to evaluate beliefs in this way.

    Otherwise you end up like my mate Neil, who is so open-minded at times his brain falls out.

    It's not being nasty, it's just finding your way; we all(ish) found our way out of the Borg and think it is WRONG. All that is doing is defining one belief as worse than the multiplicity of beliefs we now all hold.

    In the end, most beliefs are not 'better' or 'worse', but are basically the same as far as their affect on your life goes. But that should not make us lazy and over accepting of whatever is represented as the 'truth'. Otherwise the ones that are better or worse can bite you on the arse.

    Keep on rocking in the free world...

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Hi Abaddon,

    I can see your point. Yes, I sort of accept anyones ideas on belief. I respect many people who are, say, Christian, because I just cannot agree with it myself...so I suppose I think "wow, they must have faith to get over all the bible inconsistencies that seem to be there".

    Witch trial? Good question, cos I am pagan LOL. I'd rather be on trial with some1 like you than a fundie christian who assumes Im a Satanist! LOL

    I agree wholeheartedly on the subjective / objective thing. Phenomenological reality, I think Carl Rogers advocated that everything is from our own point of reference even how we "see" the world. Also the point on everyone being able to have beliefs as long as they dont harm anyone. I think thats where I draw the line....but your point on being too open minded ....well I need to think about it. I think I might be guilty of that, since I've become so accepting of any idea due to the desire to have people accept my ideas! I sort of give people the benefit of the doubt more often than not, because Im fed up of people judging me based on their own interpretation of the word "pagan" when they dont actually ask me what I believe.

    Talking of ignorance, whos REXB13?

    Just remember that science says that some things are unexplainable. Science has supported some things that were once considered "baloney". Energy fields around living things for example. Those energy fields can influence energy around us. Thats scientific, and it supports many so called paranormal ideas.

    On some things there can be middle ground such as the nature / nurture. Part this/ part that.

    I just dont like it when people think that science is 100% accurate and 100% basis for rejecting "God". I dont claim my way is 100% accurate. I think that those who believe in science should just accept, that MAYBE, just maybe when they die they will find themselves on the "other side" looking at God, for no scientific, explainable reason in particular.

    Sirona

  • Grout
    Grout

    Seems to me that one should fear faith and respect its lack.

    After all, strong faith means willingness to separate ones mind from reality to a larger degree than necessary.

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